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  #21  
Old 14 January 2018, 06:22 PM
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It is perfectly true that that is how some people talk. The POTUS is not supposed to be one of those people. Especially not in public.

Even given that: if he'd said something along the lines of 'I can understand why people want to get out of shithole countries and come to the USA': that, from the POTUS in a public conversation, would have been a massively undiplomatic thing to say and likely to cause trouble; but it wouldn't necessarily have been racist. But what he said wasn't that. What he said was that the USA shouldn't want people from those countries: in other words, that it's not just that he thinks the countries are filthy and worthless*, but that he thinks that all of the people in them are.

And, yeah, that's racist. (As well as being a massively undiplomatic thing to say, and causing trouble.)




(Shit is actually not worthless at all, if properly treated, and if not contaminated with toxic materials; and, in proper context, I don't consider it a bad word. But that's a different issue. Trump obviously didn't mean, 'people from such countries are excellent fertilizer and will help the USA grow!')
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  #22  
Old 14 January 2018, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psihala View Post
Forgot to post a link:

Fox News Defends Trump’s ‘Shithole’ Comments As Just The Way Normal People Talk



https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b0720dc4c64a73
And yet if one uses the same word to describe what Trump's done to the dignity of the Oval Office, those same people would fall all over themselves to see who could be the most outraged.
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  #23  
Old 14 January 2018, 06:32 PM
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Well yeah, at least he is not being disrespectful to the office like Obama was by being non-white in the office.
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  #24  
Old 14 January 2018, 06:48 PM
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From Psihala's link:

Quote:
“If it’s true, this is how the forgotten men and women in America talk at the bar,” Watters said.
(Bolding mine)

What a nice deflection on top of a deflection. Let's turn the conversation back to "forgotten" Americans, and try to remember that they're the real victims here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UEL View Post
The US is going downhill fast and increasing velocity.
If I could emotionally detach myself, it would be kind of fascinating. I guess none of this should be shocking - historically, backlash tends to follow progress, over and over. It would be nice if we could collectively learn something from that, but it seems humanity has to figure this all out the hard way every couple generations or so.
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  #25  
Old 14 January 2018, 10:03 PM
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To be clear, I didn't mean it was an OK thing to say. It’s just that he says so many horrible things, and does such horrible things, that I can't tell anymore whether something he's said or done is marginally less horrible than everything else, or whether I've just gone numb. But I appreciate hearing others' perspectives; it helps make sense of the whole mess, to the extent that's even possible.
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  #26  
Old 15 January 2018, 01:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfresh View Post
I wonder how hard it is to learn Australian.
Maybe I should consider Australia. I had been considering Canada. I honestly wonder if our neighbors to the North have executed a long-running revenge scheme against the US. They have Universal Healthcare and are ruled by Justin Trudeau, probably the only politician who makes me renew my commitment to heterosexuality just by looking at him. Whereas the US risks having our shitty piecemeal healthcare system made even worse and we’re ruled by a human dumpster fire in both looks and personality. That and they consider eleven weeks to be their longest election cycle ever, while eleven weeks wouldn’t even get you to New Hampshire in the US.

This is about all those hippies who ran up there during Vietnam, isn’t it? Still have to say well-played, Canucks. Whatever we did to deserve this, living well is life’s best revenge and you’ve certainly pulled that off.

Though maybe I should consider Australia rather than Canada. Trump’s actions will spillover everywhere, but Australia puts some distance between it. I’ve also heard that Australia is considered to be one of the best places to be in the event of a zombie apocalypse. Big massive island in the middle of an ocean and lightly populated, with much of the continent still uninhabited. And there’s the obvious: the crazy flora/fauna would make quick work of any zombies.
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  #27  
Old 15 January 2018, 02:21 AM
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Given how much of Australia is already desert, I'm thinking that i might be a problem to move there given that climate change is likely to result in greater water shortages.

Also, I'm not going anywhere without my cat, and taking a cat to Canada is going to be a lot easier than taking one to Australia.
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  #28  
Old 15 January 2018, 02:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
Given how much of Australia is already desert, I'm thinking that i might be a problem to move there given that climate change is likely to result in greater water shortages.
Yeah, I saw a pretty bleak documentary about that a few years ago, where people would really be hurting in Australia. As I recall, the documentary predicted that civilization would collapse, and people would roam the desert world in black supercharged V-8 Pursuit Specials, trying to protect the scattered survivors from motorcycle gangs.
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  #29  
Old 15 January 2018, 02:59 AM
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Hey Mr. Tangerine Man
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  #30  
Old 15 January 2018, 04:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfresh View Post
Yeah, I saw a pretty bleak documentary about that a few years ago, where people would really be hurting in Australia. As I recall, the documentary predicted that civilization would collapse, and people would roam the desert world in black supercharged V-8 Pursuit Specials, trying to protect the scattered survivors from motorcycle gangs.
I saw that too, though i thought that was just what happened with Australians got lost in the Outback.
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  #31  
Old 15 January 2018, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psihala View Post
Forgot to post a link:

Fox News Defends Trump’s ‘Shithole’ Comments As Just The Way Normal People Talk



https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b0720dc4c64a73
I'm from Wisconsin and I don't recall anyone at Taco Bell talking like that when we hired quite a few Togolese and Ivory Coasters. Mainly what we talked about was "how the Hell did Madison, Wisconsin come up as a place to emigrate to?" One of our Togolese said something like "it's not that urban and, of course, there were all the Peace Corps volunteers...."
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  #32  
Old 15 January 2018, 11:52 AM
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I hate the idea that 'normal' people are bigots. I suppose it means that non-bigoted people - or at least people who try to be less bigoted - are all fake. It establishes this idea that being racist is just an unconquerable part of human nature and anybody who tries to avoid racist language is lying or else 'not normal'.

I suppose being an immigrant yourself or simply not white is likely to make you 'not normal' according to this world view.

Oh, and people need to stop laying the disenfranchised majority bullcrap on so thickly. Yes, working class people are often overlooked, discriminated against and persecuted... but not like this. They aren't persecuted by the presence of immigrants or benefited by having a racist clown as president. It certainly doesn't give working class people a golden ticket to say and do whatever the hell they want or shaft other disenfranchised groups.
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  #33  
Old 15 January 2018, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blatherskite View Post
I hate the idea that 'normal' people are bigots. I suppose it means that non-bigoted people - or at least people who try to be less bigoted - are all fake. It establishes this idea that being racist is just an unconquerable part of human nature and anybody who tries to avoid racist language is lying or else 'not normal'.
Blatherskite, that's a very good point.

I think that for some time we'd managed, not to get rid of racism, but to in most public discourse and a great deal of private discourse (depending on who you hung out with; but I hang out with quite a variety of people and almost never heard that sort of crap) de-normalize the blatant forms of it. And the Trump administration, with the cooperation of rather too many other Republicans, is trying to normalize it again.
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  #34  
Old 15 January 2018, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blatherskite View Post
I hate the idea that 'normal' people are bigots. I suppose it means that non-bigoted people - or at least people who try to be less bigoted - are all fake. It establishes this idea that being racist is just an unconquerable part of human nature and anybody who tries to avoid racist language is lying or else 'not normal'.
Faux News isn't saying that "normal" people are bigots - they're saying that "normal" people use words like "$#!^hole"; they're entirely avoiding the fact that Trump insulted an entire continent and has an overtly racist mindset. Frankly, I think they are intentionally focusing on the language; it makes Trump more relatable - hey, you hear worse language drinking with your buddies at the bar! Yeah, and if my buddies at the bar were saying racist things, I'd call them out on it.

Oh, and the answer to Trump's question "Why do we get immigrants from poor nations instead of Norway?" kinda answers itself - people from Norway don't want to leave Norway; people from Haiti want to get away from the poverty. Duh!
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  #35  
Old 15 January 2018, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Winston O'Boogie View Post
Faux News isn't saying that "normal" people are bigots - they're saying that "normal" people use words like "$#!^hole"; they're entirely avoiding the fact that Trump insulted an entire continent and has an overtly racist mindset. Frankly, I think they are intentionally focusing on the language; it makes Trump more relatable - hey, you hear worse language drinking with your buddies at the bar! Yeah, and if my buddies at the bar were saying racist things, I'd call them out on it.

Oh, and the answer to Trump's question "Why do we get immigrants from poor nations instead of Norway?" kinda answers itself - people from Norway don't want to leave Norway; people from Haiti want to get away from the poverty. Duh!
I'm in academia, and perhaps that makes some difference, but I don't regard that sort of speech as representative of normal people. I find it representative of aberrant and abhorrent people. YMMV.
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  #36  
Old 15 January 2018, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwins View Post
my first thought about this part of the remark was, "why don't we have more immigrants from Norway? What are you going to do, kidnap them?
I looked for the actual numbers, and it is as I suspected.

More Americans emigrate to Norway than the small number of Norwegians who move here. So yes, probably kidnapping.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.indep...441.html%3famp
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  #37  
Old 15 January 2018, 04:36 PM
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Brad, do you mean that you find people who use the word "shithole," in any context, to be aberrant and abhorrent? Otherwise, I'm not sure how it's an answer to the post you quoted. I do think normal people use such coarse language--not that anyone who doesn't is abnormal--but context is key. I've referred to my own apartment as a shithole, but I'm pretty sure I'm talking about the infrastructure problems in the complex and my own failure to keep it presentable, not making a racist remark about the two white people who live here.
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  #38  
Old 15 January 2018, 04:47 PM
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It may be generational as well. For me words like that are not commonly used among my family or friends if someone were to say something like that it would definitely have shock value. Of course I suppose that's why people like Trump do choose to talk like that in settings where that kind of language is all kinds of inappropriate.

That Faux News is defending it is unsurprising of course. Somehow had it been Obama or Clinton does anyone think Faux News would be saying "hey no biggie"?
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  #39  
Old 15 January 2018, 05:04 PM
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Why in the world would a Norwegian person want to immigrate to a shithole like the US? In the US there is no universal health coverage, lucky if you get two weeks vacation per year, a turnip for a president, ungodly expensive higher education, shorter life expectancy, basically zero maternity leave, the highest prison rate of any first world country, ...
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  #40  
Old 15 January 2018, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwins View Post
I looked for the actual numbers, and it is as I suspected.

More Americans emigrate to Norway than the small number of Norwegians who move here. So yes, probably kidnapping.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.indep...441.html%3famp
And of course during the period in history when a large number of Norwegians were coming to the US, Norway was a very poor country, a country xenophobes at the time might have called a s---hole.* IIRC historically Norway had been one of the poorest countries in Europe until they found oil in the 1970s, at which point they became one of the richest countries in Europe almost overnight. If I understand correctly the Swedes and Danes stereotype Norwegians as something sort of like hillbillies with money.

*No offense to Norwegians, just trying to put immigration to the US from Norway into historical context.
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