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  #1  
Old 04 January 2018, 11:52 AM
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Jaded Trump shuts down voter fraud commission, citing ‘endless legal battles’

President Donald Trump abruptly shut down his signature voter fraud commission on Wednesday and instead kicked the issue to the Department of Homeland Security.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/ele...attles-n834491
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  #2  
Old 04 January 2018, 02:16 PM
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Local talk show host talks about this issue a lot. He would like to see every state spend more money on ensuring that voter roles are 100% accurate and up to date. He thinks this can be done by a state/county election commission sending out postcards (postage paid) every two years (IIRC) that asks people to validate/correct their addresses, party affiliation (if any), and any other criteria. He admits that it's not a sexy topic, but of course it's very important. He's staunchly against having to show an ID when you head to the polls--you should not have to show an ID to exercise a Constitutional right.

[Local talk show host comes from a long line of civil rights advocates and often has guests on the show that discuss this and other issues]
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  #3  
Old 04 January 2018, 03:07 PM
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I wouldn't have a problem with needing to show ID to exercise a right with two very important points:
1) Misrepresentation or fraud of the right was a common problem.
2) Obtaining such ID was a simple process that was easily done by all eligible people.

Since neither one of these is the case for voting (especially since #2 is deliberately made hard for minorities) I do not support requiring ID to vote.
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  #4  
Old 04 January 2018, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnStorm View Post
He thinks this can be done by a state/county election commission sending out postcards (postage paid) every two years (IIRC) that asks people to validate/correct their addresses, party affiliation (if any), and any other criteria.
So a postcard would get sent to every registered voter every 2 years, and the voter would be required to send it back to validate their address/status? And postcards not returned, or returned as undeliverable would presumably be used to purge the voter rolls?

Or is it supposed to just be a voluntary reminder to update one's address, affiliation, etc.?
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Old 04 January 2018, 05:19 PM
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"Show me your papers" come to mind with any one else?
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  #6  
Old 04 January 2018, 05:33 PM
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No.And other words.
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  #7  
Old 04 January 2018, 05:39 PM
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According to a report on CNN, Trump was under pressure from too many lawsuits if he stayed the course.

But, he fully intends to shift the commission to the Department of Homeland Security where the "rules" are applied differently (it is all about National Security, remember) and he believes it will be harder to oppose.

A former DHS director claims that it will not work. DHS does not have any mandate to look at elections, and any task to investigate the elections will require slowing down other work.
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Old 04 January 2018, 05:42 PM
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IMO, Trump doesn't care if DHS actually does anything or not. The transfer is about making sure it doesn't look like a failure rather than actually finding any evidence about voter fraud.
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  #9  
Old 04 January 2018, 05:42 PM
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And moving it won't address the fact that the states won't, and in many cases legally can't, provide the detailed voter information the task force was acting for. Fortunately, IMO.
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  #10  
Old 04 January 2018, 07:03 PM
UrbanLegends101 UrbanLegends101 is offline
 
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And moving it won't address the fact that the states won't, and in many cases legally can't, provide the detailed voter information the task force was acting for. Fortunately, IMO.

If the true purpose of the task force was to determine the degree of voter fraud in the 2016 general election, it would seem the only information the states would need to supply to the task force is the full nine-digit Social Security number of those who voted.

Okay, make it a list of all registered voters with a subset of those who voted.

A comparison can be run against all 50 states plus the District of Columbia, to see if anyone registered in more than one state actually voted in more than one state.

The annotated list of SSNs tied to voters could then be compared with the Social Security Administration's master data list for citizenship vs other presence in the United States.

I seem to recall that Florida had some objections in supplying Social Security numbers in the data supplied to the task force, but it would also seem that is only the nine-digit Social Security number is supplied, there is no other identifying information associated with the Social Security number.

On this, I am not sure the state voting records have the full nine-digit Social Security number. I do know Florida DMV records do have the full nine-digit Social Security number for my wife and me - that information was supplied in 2013 when we renewed our FL driver licenses for Real ID Act compliance. I am almost sure the DMV does not have the Social Security number for our daughter, as she has no Florida issued identification. When daughter registered to vote, I am almost sure she did not supply her full Social Security number.

I suppose part of these keys on the Social Security number, as virtually all US citizens do have one and since one has to be a US citizenship to vote in most US elections, the number should be a good comparison data point.
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  #11  
Old 04 January 2018, 07:15 PM
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And that comparison, if it were possible to make, which I doubt, would certainly show thousands -- maybe even millions -- of people who are registered to vote in multiple places. And that would not establish an iota of voter fraud. People move. No one cancels their old registration when they move. They just register in the new location. They will eventually be purged from the old voter roll, but how long that takes, and by what method varies by jurisdiction. But there are not bunches of people running back to their old precinct to get an extra vote in.
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  #12  
Old 04 January 2018, 07:35 PM
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To show multi-voting, each state would have to include full name and registered address with the SSN's of registered voters and then that information would be cross-referenced that with the list of cast ballots for each election.
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  #13  
Old 04 January 2018, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwins View Post
No one cancels their old registration when they move. They just register in the new location.
When I moved here to Pennsylvania I asked how I could go about cancelling my old registration in Delaware. The clerk looked at me like I was crazy and said it would just happen automatically. Hopefully that doesn't invalidate my voting against Trump.
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  #14  
Old 04 January 2018, 08:24 PM
UrbanLegends101 UrbanLegends101 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by erwins View Post
And that comparison, if it were possible to make, which I doubt, would certainly show thousands -- maybe even millions -- of people who are registered to vote in multiple places.
I am working with the assumption that the states do know who voted in a specific election. Names are nominally checked off. I can't tell you how other states, or for that matter, how other counties in Florida do this, but I know the Clay County voter database is updated in near real time, when a person comes to a polling location, checks in and is given a ballot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erwins View Post
And that would not establish an iota of voter fraud. People move. No one cancels their old registration when they move. They just register in the new location.
Understand and I agree with you on the cancellation of the old registration. The data should be able to define those who voted and those who were on the registered list on the day of the election. Again, the primary concern to me was to validate or disprove Pres. Trump and Gregg Phillips' claim that 3 million illegal aliens voted in the 2016 general election.

Of course, the state to state validation doesn't verify citizenship eligibility, but then after the duplicates are weeded out, the list of SSNs which voted could be compared with Social Security as a back up to the individual state's citizenship verification process. While it may very well be that Social Security Administration's database is not that accurate, we'd have to consider an SSA comparison would have fewer false citizenship hits than valid non-citizenship hits. That is, if SSA indicates the SSN is issued to a US citizen, nothing else needs to be done. If SSA indicates the SSN is for a non-US citizen, then that data goes back to the state for citizenship verification.

When my wife became a US citizen, I don't remember us contacting SSA to change her information from legal permanent resident to US citizen. I do know we applied for her US passports very quickly after she became a US citizen, as she needed the passports to travel, so unless SSA, US Passport Agency and the then INS don't work together, she might not be a US citizen per SSA.




Quote:
Originally Posted by erwins View Post
They will eventually be purged from the old voter roll, but how long that takes, and by what method varies by jurisdiction. But there are not bunches of people running back to their old precinct to get an extra vote in.
I agree that the clean-up process is probably pretty slow and frankly, relies on the honesty of the vast majority of voters not to vote in the jurisdiction of previous registration. That is why I'd like to see the full nine-digit Social Security number comparison, for the people who voted.

I also agree with you there are probably millions of people who are legally registered in more than one state, but of those millions, how many really did vote twice in the same presidential election?

Last edited by UrbanLegends101; 04 January 2018 at 08:43 PM. Reason: adding a word or two or three
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  #15  
Old 04 January 2018, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
To show multi-voting, each state would have to include full name and registered address with the SSN's of registered voters and then that information would be cross-referenced that with the list of cast ballots for each election.
I agree that will work, but I'd suggest only the full SSNs need to be compared and no names or addresses supplied

No person in the United States should have an SSN which duplicates any other valid SSN, therefore if a person with a unique SSN is verified as having voted in the 2016 general election and that unique SSN doesn't appear on any other state or DC voting list (meaning list of those who voted in the 2016 general election) it would appear that person did not vote in more than one jurisdiction.

I would agree with you in that using full name, address and full SSN would also validate every voter registration database for errors.

I am a little concerned with sharing names, addresses and full SSNs, although I am not sure why I'd care, since it is very possible my name and SSN data have been breached in OPM hacks and the Experian data hack.
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  #16  
Old 04 January 2018, 08:44 PM
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I don't know about anyone else, but my first thought when I saw that headline yesterday was, "If he wants it shut down, it's probably finding evidence that there was voter fraud in his favor."
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  #17  
Old 04 January 2018, 09:57 PM
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I don't think all states have SSN's attached to the voting rolls at all. Originally, at least, they weren't supposed to.

-- current web page of the Social Security Administration:


Quote:
The States are required to verify the driver’s license number against the state MVA database. Only in situations where no driver’s license exists should the states verify the last four digits of the new voter registrant’s Social Security Number (SSN). The State submits the last digits of the SSN, name, and date of birth to the MVA for verification with SSA. In addition, SSA is required to report whether its records indicate that the registrant is deceased.

To ensure the privacy of the SSN, HAVA restricted the collection to only the last four digits of the SSN. HAVA provides that these last four digits do not constitute an SSN.
So states are only supposed to have any portion of the SSN connected with the registration rolls if the registrant doesn't have a driver's license. And even then they're only supposed to have the last four digits.

ETA: E. Q. Taft, that was my thought exactly.
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  #18  
Old 04 January 2018, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by UrbanLegends101 View Post
Again, the primary concern to me was to validate or disprove Pres. Trump and Gregg Phillips' claim that 3 million illegal aliens voted in the 2016 general election.
This is pretty much the equivalent of saying that you want to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to verify that each individual person in the country is not secretly a space alien.

There needs to be some evidence of a problem before we start talking about spending enormous amounts of money and making giant lists of valid SSNs to be stored on a bunch of government computers. And it is pretty obvious that the false positive rate would easily swamp any actual instances of voter fraud. Besides the issues already mentioned, what do you think the data entry error rate is for SSNs?
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  #19  
Old 05 January 2018, 01:34 AM
UrbanLegends101 UrbanLegends101 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by erwins View Post
This is pretty much the equivalent of saying that you want to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to verify that each individual person in the country is not secretly a space alien.
Understand, but let's say for the continuation of the discussion, the full nine-digit SSN is available associated with the voter rolls, it should not cost hundreds of millions of dollars to do a SSN comparisons via computer programs against other lists. I'd be inclined to agree with you if we had to do these list comparisons manually.

But if the voter side doesn't have access to the full nine-digit SSN, well, then we can't use that for comparisons, can they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by erwins View Post

There needs to be some evidence of a problem before we start talking about spending enormous amounts of money and making giant lists of valid SSNs to be stored on a bunch of government computers. And it is pretty obvious that the false positive rate would easily swamp any actual instances of voter fraud. Besides the issues already mentioned, what do you think the data entry error rate is for SSNs?

Well, yes, there could be massive data errors if these lists were being manually keyed, but yet, since I've been filing tax returns since the mid 1960s, been associated with DOD one way or another since 1968, I can remember only once when there was an SSN problem.

It had nothing to do with the US government. About 10 years ago, my Experian credit report had a report of variation of SSN, but I recognized the variation, for it was the SSN of one of my brothers. Once reported, Experian sent me a corrected report with no SSN variation reported.


I can't speak for anyone else, but I figure these organizations have my SSN:

Florida DMV

FAA

DOD

DOS

OPM

IRS

US Passport Agency

SSA

Granted, the FAA and DOD are removing my SSN from my IDs, but the SSN is still in their systems, I'd guess.

Well, in summary, I guess trying to compare the full nine-digit SSNs isn't getting too far, especially if it appears under HAVA, the voter registration folks aren't supposed to have access to the full nine-digit SSN.

Last edited by UrbanLegends101; 05 January 2018 at 01:35 AM. Reason: adding a word or two or three
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  #20  
Old 11 January 2018, 07:37 PM
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For comparison, as a non-resident, citizen voter, I have to supply the last 4 digits of my SSN, and I have to register every time I want to vote.

When we first moved here, if I voted in a federal election from abroad, I would automatically be registered as an overseas voter for the next federal election.

This is no longer the case, probably to save postage costs.

And I no longer have a driver's license for any state in the U.S. Most states require residency to issue a driver's license, unless you are military or work for the government.
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