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  #561  
Old 21 December 2017, 04:30 AM
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UEL, this mistrial doesn't seem to have had anything to do with the jury. It appears to have been declared by the judge, on grounds of prosecutorial misbehavior.

Quote:
A federal judge on Wednesday declared a mistrial [ . . . ] U.S. District Judge Gloria Navarro told federal prosecutors they had willfully violated evidence rules in failing to turn over pertinent documents to the defense, adding, "The failure is prejudicial," to ensuring a fair trial. [. . . . ] Navarro had warned prosecutors last week she might declare a mistrial after listing documents previously undisclosed by prosecutors that could be used to impugn government witnesses or bolster defendants' arguments that they felt threatened by government "snipers" before the standoff.
ETA: And what crocoduck_hunter said.
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  #562  
Old 21 December 2017, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
UEL, this mistrial doesn't seem to have had anything to do with the jury. It appears to have been declared by the judge, on grounds of prosecutorial misbehavior.



ETA: And what crocoduck_hunter said.
I'm not following the case. But we've had similar here in Canada in the recent past, and what I described is exactly what went on.

We do have incompetent prosecutors too, and incompetent defence.

I will do some reading on the case (out of pure interest).
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  #563  
Old 21 December 2017, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UEL View Post
I'm not following the case. But we've had similar here in Canada in the recent past, and what I described is exactly what went on.

We do have incompetent prosecutors too, and incompetent defence.

I will do some reading on the case (out of pure interest).
From what I've read, prosecutorial abuse is a big problem; it's either the abuse mentioned in the OP, or innocent people being found guilty so the prosecutor can live up to the 'tough on crime' promises made during the campaign.

[disclaimer: yes I know there are abuses on both sides]
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  #564  
Old 21 December 2017, 07:18 PM
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Well, withholding evidence from the defense is definitely a no-no for prosecutors. It's on e of those things that's designed to protect the rights of the citizens: the prosecution has to tell the defense exactly what evidence they have that may be used in the trial, but the defense has no such obligation in return. Mistakes get made, of course, or sometimes new evidence shows up very late in the game (even after the trial has begun), but if the prosecutors really did willfully and knowingly avoid passing evidence on to the defense, that's certainly grounds for a mistrial. (That I have strong feelings against the defendants here doesn't change that, alas.)
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  #565  
Old 08 January 2018, 07:23 PM
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Charges Against Bundys in Ranch Standoff Case Are Dismissed

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Judge Gloria M. Navarro of Federal District Court, in a ruling from the bench, said that the government’s missteps in withholding evidence against the three Bundy family members and a supporter, Ryan W. Payne, were so grave that the indictment against them would be dismissed.

The decision could be appealed by prosecutors. But they would only be able to bring charges again if they won the appeal and the ruling was reversed — and they then got a new indictment from a new grand jury.
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  #566  
Old 09 January 2018, 02:58 AM
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Quote:
The decision could be appealed by prosecutors. But they would only be able to bring charges again if they won the appeal and the ruling was reversed — and they then got a new indictment from a new grand jury
Good luck with that happening with this administration. Bundy sounds like the kind of guy that Trump would pardon.
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  #567  
Old 09 January 2018, 03:32 AM
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And then make Secretary of the Interior.
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  #568  
Old 09 January 2018, 02:01 PM
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The Feds really, really went out of their way to bungle both of these cases. It probably will do a lot to encourage the anti-fed forces out there, especially since it shows that no, they would NOT get a fair trial, the Feds will cheat if they can (or just be incompetent enough to have the same effect.)
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  #569  
Old 09 January 2018, 09:37 PM
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If the same thing had happened in a case where the defendant was championing a cause supported by the left, conservative media would be howling that the feds bungled it deliberately, at the behest of the "deep state."

While I expect there are some on the left who would accept a similar theory about why the government messed up this case, I doubt that the theory will gain a lot of traction. We just don't seem to be paranoid quite that way -- or if we are, at least we don't try to build an entire media empire on the emotion.
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  #570  
Old 09 January 2018, 09:53 PM
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The left does generally try to keep the fringe wackos at the fringe, rather than framing party rhetoric around appealing to them.
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  #571  
Old 10 January 2018, 12:53 AM
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erwins, maybe that is why the right seems to be doing a lot better, as far as control of the House, Senate and governorships. Maybe appealing to the nutjob fringe is the path to success.
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  #572  
Old 10 January 2018, 01:06 AM
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Maybe, but it bites you in the ass when you've actually got to figure out how keep the idiots working together long enough to accomplish your goals.
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  #573  
Old 10 January 2018, 01:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E. Q. Taft View Post
If the same thing had happened in a case where the defendant was championing a cause supported by the left, conservative media would be howling that the feds bungled it deliberately, at the behest of the "deep state."
It goes back to my theory I have about why Leftwing protestors are treated differently than Rightwing ones.

Rightwing protests usually affirm traditional views of power and control and even if it doesn't, it's safely contained within lower levels of the societal pyramid, posing little threat to those on top.

Leftwing protests on the other hand, explicitly call out traditional views of power and control, directly challenging those on top of the societal pyramid.

Hence why with Leftwing protests, the militarized police show up pretty quick and are like, "Say hello to tear gas, mothereffers!"

Whereas with Rightwing protests, the authorities sit on the rears and are like, "It would be better if you'd stop, but hey, I don't want you to feel too much pressure over this."

Leftwing protestors are also likely to face more severe punishments and stiffer sentences than rightwing ones.
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  #574  
Old 10 January 2018, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
Rightwing protests usually affirm traditional views of power and control and even if it doesn't, it's safely contained within lower levels of the societal pyramid, posing little threat to those on top.
I'm not sure the Cliven incident fits this one. Civilians aiming guns at cops isn't exactly a traditional view of power and control, and the people involved (affluent white guys, mostly) were not at the bottom of the societal pyramid, regardless of their persecution fantasies.
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  #575  
Old 10 January 2018, 01:10 PM
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White guys controlling things is pretty traditional and said white guys weren't trying to equalize the power structure, they were just trying to carve out a corner that wouldn't have much effect on anyone else's power. I mean, there is no "Big Grazing Fees" power structure anywhere close to the power of oil companies that would have lost if the pipeline hadn't been build.
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  #576  
Old 10 January 2018, 03:19 PM
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For that matter, they're trying to keep a power that said white guys felt they'd had all along -- and had had, in practice, for probably over a century. Their keeping it wouldn't upend the old power structure; it would help maintain it.

That it may undermine even that in the long run -- overgrazed lands won't support cattle ranchers forever -- isn't on their minds. They wouldn't be the only people to leap to the conclusion that 'we've been doing this for the last hundred years, so of course we can do it for the next hundred, or the next ten thousand.'
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  #577  
Old 10 January 2018, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
That it may undermine even that in the long run -- overgrazed lands won't support cattle ranchers forever -- isn't on their minds. They wouldn't be the only people to leap to the conclusion that 'we've been doing this for the last hundred years, so of course we can do it for the next hundred, or the next ten thousand.'
Of course, they don't care about the long run because any consequences will occur well after they're done with the land, so it's officially Somebody Else's Problem. Heck, the ability to keep "those other people" from ever using the land might be an added perk in their minds.
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  #578  
Old 10 January 2018, 08:17 PM
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Probably true of some people, crocoduck_hunter, but possibly not true of the Bundys, who have children also ranching and may well expect their descendents to do so indefinitely.

They may just not believe that they're actually doing damage.
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