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Old 26 June 2018, 04:14 PM
Jusenkyo no Pikachu Jusenkyo no Pikachu is offline
 
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Default Apparently a contrary opinion on The Last Jedi

What do you know, it did not ruin Star Wars!

Actually, I’m sick of seeing this whole “Social Justice Politics is ruining [insert franchise here]”. These guys would probably chuck a major wobbly if they ever saw Miles From Tomorrowland (A kids’ show where a mother commands a spaceship and outranks her husband? Brainwashing! Also, let’s forget that the main character is a boy), so it’s refreshing to see someone say that no, your silly little space opera franchise is not ruined by suddenly doing everything it’s been doing since day one (Honestly, I have five words for those who could be aghast at…well, pretty much anything a woman is shown doing in these new movies: “Into the garbage chute, flyboy!”).

As for the movie itself…I found it to just be underwhelming, actually. I liked the theme of “you can’t win them all” and did enjoy the idea of a “Force connection” (because if you’re going to repeat a theme, you can do worse than Empire). I wasn’t a huge fan of Rose, but that’s for reasons that have nothing to do with diversity quotas and more me finding her shoehorned in.
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Old 26 June 2018, 06:41 PM
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Rose was probably my favorite part of the movie (along with Poe's line "STOP ENJOYING THIS!") but YMMV.

My over-all opinion of the movie was pretty "meh" but that's been my opinion on just about everything Star Wars related the came after The Empire Strikes Back. (I haven't seen Solo yet.) Still generally better than the prequels...

A Facebook friend linked something from the "Remake 'The Last Jedi' Campaign" (not because he supports it, but because he needed to share the pain of banging his head on his desk). Oy.
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Old 26 June 2018, 06:52 PM
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Yeah, I found Rose to be a much more interesting character than Poe or Finn. And the movie was pretty "meh."
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Old 26 June 2018, 09:18 PM
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Social justice didn’t ruin TLJ, a lack of consistency with TFA and other films (looking at you, hyperdrive as a weapon) coupled with a pointless side adventure, unnecessary drama between Holdo and Poe, and the shoddy attempts at humor and "subversion" ruined it. Oh, and the continued dilution of villainy. Why, oh why, do they keep dumbing down the villains and making them behave like children in a slap fight?

I didn’t see Solo and I probably won’t see Episode IX out of spite.

Rose was like a manic pixie dream girl, by the way. Not interesting at all and more of a nuisance than anything.
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Old 26 June 2018, 09:23 PM
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I loved the movie.

And I clicked the link long enough to see it was a YouTube link. I'm not interested in someones opinion-for or against- in video format.

If you're only seeing people bitch about how crappy *Star Wars movies are due to SJW's you may want to expand your media consumption past YouTube videos and/or just stop reading/watching the stuff you're seeing.

*Insert whatever example you like here
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Old 26 June 2018, 09:38 PM
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You are missing out by not watching Solo. It's the best of the Disney Star Wars movies. And though I was entertained by TLJ, it was IMO the worst Star Wars since Attack of the Clones.
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Old 27 June 2018, 02:26 AM
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I enjoyed TLJ though I freely acknowledge its flaws, none of which have to do with PoC or women. As I’ve said many times before, increasingly I’m convinced the real problem with Star Wars is an unpleaseable fanbase. After George Lucas received his check for handing over the rights to Star Wars, I’m all but positive that he shouted, “They’re your problem now, suckers!” right before speeding off into the sunset in his Thelma-and-Louise- style convertible.

Even though I’ve long been a fan of superheroes, Star Wars, and so many other geekish pursuits, I’ve come to despise the geek subculture, especially the Star Wars-one. I hated the prequels too and I have no problem with ranting about it, but bullying a nine-year-old about it?! And apparently now Mary Sue refers to any female character who is the protagonist and displays any competence.
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Old 27 June 2018, 06:09 AM
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I enjoyed TLJ though I freely acknowledge its flaws, none of which have to do with PoC or women. As I’ve said many times before, increasingly I’m convinced the real problem with Star Wars is an unpleaseable fanbase.
I wouldn’t consider myself part of the Star Wars "fan base." I’ve seen the movies (well, up until a few weeks ago) but that’s it. I don’t give a crap about the EU or fan theories or any of that, I just care that it was not a good/coherent story for the reasons I’ve outlined here and in the "movies you’ve seen recently" thread.
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And apparently now Mary Sue refers to any female character who is the protagonist and displays any competence.
I had never even heard of the "Mary Sue" trope before Rey and TLJ but, you know what? She kind of is. It’s also another example of the inconsistency with the previous movies, in that she goes from the usual untapped well of midocholorians (or whatever) to the most powerful Jedi ever with no training.

Luke needed training. Anakin needed training. Obi-wan needed training. And those are the only Jedi in training I can name because, again, I only ever watched the films and don’t give a crap about the EU.

Did Rey need training? Nope. She went from nothing to mind control in a matter of hours and defeated Kylo by the end of the movie. And for that matter, WTF is up with that kid and the broomstick at the end. Again, neither Luke nor Anakin could do that without training and they were the most bad-ass chosen one and son of chosen one Jedi ever until the new trilogy, but this kid can do it right off the bat?

But I digress, getting back to Rey (and another inconsistency), even after having used the force many times in TFA, she falls for that stupid trick where Luke touches her hand with a blade of grass and says that’s the force, like she had no concept of what the force is? I mean, which is it? Is she the most powerful, badass force wielder in the movie, capable of besting Luke and Kylo in hand to hand combat or is she some primitive from "not Tatooine" or whatever her desert planet is called.

Also, seriously, she has never left said desert planet, but she can fly the Falcon against Tie fighters better than Han ever could before she’s even left the atmosphere? Yes, better. Busted turret, three ties in tow, lines up a triple kill shot for Finn. W. T. F.

No. I’m sorry, just no. It goes beyond mere competence to "plug in the attribute, she’s got it to its max." She is so a Mary Sue.
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Old 27 June 2018, 10:42 AM
Jusenkyo no Pikachu Jusenkyo no Pikachu is offline
 
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You don’t watch Stefan Molyneux, do you? I’m pretty sure that, to quote a wise man, everything you just said was wrong.

First off, Rey is introduced as working for this guy Unkar Plutt on Jakku. Plutt stole the Falcon, and Rey is established through dialogue to know things about the ship. Plus, we already know from ANH and TPM that Force usage is to some extent instinctive (RO would also show this, as does TLJ). She doesn’t go from zero to badass in three point five, she’s already on her way there. She also talks to Han, who tells her about the whole Force thing (which she has heard of already). Luke is far more guilty of appearing like this, considering all his training in ANH is essentially “swing a sword around while blindfolded”. He mentions being a pilot and shooting two-metre targets, but he’s introduced as a farm boy who might have had to fight off the Sandpeople and other raiders.

Also, Kylo Ren is hardly a threat by the time she faces him on Starkiller Base. He’s been seriously weakened, both emotionally (by patricide) and physically (by the Bowcaster), And has been a whiny little wanker throughout. Also, by the time she faces him, Starkiller Base is falling apart. She doesn’t defeat him, they just cut their losses.

Also, she doesn’t quite grasp what the Force actually is until Luke tells her. Where are these “many times” you’re on about?

You got me, however, on the broom thing.

ETA: Stefan Molyneux is a conservative radio host who did a videothat raised most of the same points you have. Here is a rebuttal.

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Old 27 June 2018, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Jusenkyo no Pikachu View Post
You don’t watch Stefan Molyneux, do you?
Nope, I sure don't.

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First off, Rey is introduced as working for this guy Unkar Plutt on Jakku. Plutt stole the Falcon, and Rey is established through dialogue to know things about the ship.
Not enough to explain how she can fly it. It's the equivalent of having an aviation mechanic in the Navy or Air Force who maybe--maybe--taxis the plane down the runway every now and then for maintenance checks then being portrayed as a skilled dogfighter. I mean, I'd buy that they could probably keep going on the thrust and maybe take off, I'd consider it reaching but would suspend disbelief (maybe, if they handled it roughly) if they could land, but no way in hell would I buy they can fly it effectively in combat against even marginally trained adversaries (unless of course we accept that all villains are incompetent in the Star Wars universe, even the low level villains, and even at carrying out the basic functions of villainy like be able to fight).

This is another problem with the film, btw, to the extent it does address SOME of its inconsistencies, it does so with short asides that don't stand up to scrutiny. Like how Finn knows where to find the tracker on the Snoke's ship (because he was a janitor and somehow cleaned the flagship along with Star Killer base I guess--oh, and this is a plot hole too, because if he knows where it is, then it seems like by extension he ought to know it exists which means it shouldn't be a secret to anyone that the First Order can track ship through hyperspace, but I can overlook that).

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Plus, we already know from ANH and TPM that Force usage is to some extent instinctive (RO would also show this, as does TLJ). She doesn’t go from zero to badass in three point five, she’s already on her way there.
On her way there from what? Being a desert scavenger on "not Tatooine" somehow qualifies one as a martial arts master? Again, Anakin and Luke both, who were positively silly with the force, did not have the ability to move things and mind control people without training from a Jedi master. Rey does. Not only does she, but before she is even trained (beyond 5 seconds with a blaster and a pep talk from Han) she can handle her own in a light saber duel with Kylo, who actually was trained by both a Jedi master (Luke) and a whatever the heck Snoke is.

Consider how long the timeline of TFA and TLJ are (we're not talking years like Hope to Empire or Empire to RotJ, we're talking weeks, maybe even just days) and how rapidly Rey develops in that time and it's the same kind of problem as with the mechanic going from taxiing on the runway or knowing her way around a static display to being able to engage in advanced (compared to everything we've seen in earlier movies) abilities.

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She also talks to Han, who tells her about the whole Force thing (which she has heard of already).
Which 1) shouldn't do much for her because Han isn't a Jedi and, so far as the movies ago (again, all most of us care about) he is not force sensitive. He is aware the force exists and that's about it, but 2) makes the stupid thing with Luke and the blade of grass all the more ridiculous. Because you're right, she DOES know something about the force already in TLJ. Clearly they just put in that scene as yet another dumb joke (like the "phone call" that kicked the whole thing off).

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Luke is far more guilty of appearing like this, considering all his training in ANH is essentially “swing a sword around while blindfolded”. He mentions being a pilot and shooting two-metre targets, but he’s introduced as a farm boy who might have had to fight off the Sandpeople and other raiders.
Far more guilty? No. Guilty of a lesser charge? Sure, certainly when it came to flying the X-wing, but at least when it came to the 2-meter target he had that force connection with Obi-wan going for him. It wasn't necessarily a matter of moving the missiles with the force as it was taking a really well-aimed shot in the dark. But fine, whatever--at least he didn't use the force to snatch Obi-wan's lightsaber after he was dead and engage in a battle with Lord Vader that saw him coming out on top until they were separated by... something (I mean, a fissure in Rey's case, but "whatever" in Luke's, hypothetically).

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Also, Kylo Ren is hardly a threat by the time she faces him on Starkiller Base. He’s been seriously weakened, both emotionally (by patricide) and physically (by the Bowcaster), And has been a whiny little wanker throughout. Also, by the time she faces him, Starkiller Base is falling apart. She doesn’t defeat him, they just cut their losses.
Kylo is only "not a threat" because this movie continues with the theme of Rogue One and TFA (continues with and magnifies) of having grossly incompetent villains who couldn't rule over a class of preschool-aged children, let alone a galaxy and yet somehow they do.

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Also, she doesn’t quite grasp what the Force actually is until Luke tells her. Where are these “many times” you’re on about?
She frees herself from captivity by mind controlling a stormtrooper. She uses the force several times in her duel with Kylo. and there's probably at least one more (some have argued that her ability to see the lightsaber's history when she touches it is also a force-technique, just one we've never been shown before in films, so I guess that's three and counting) but I don't care to go digging for examples. Even so, that's easily 2-3 instances of force control that Luke didn't have a handle on, if at all, until RotJ which, again, was years after New Hope, whereas so far the NT is days or weeks long.

Last edited by ASL; 27 June 2018 at 02:59 PM.
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Old 27 June 2018, 04:11 PM
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Not enough to explain how she can fly it. It's the equivalent of having an aviation mechanic in the Navy or Air Force who maybe--maybe--taxis the plane down the runway every now and then for maintenance checks then being portrayed as a skilled dogfighter. I mean, I'd buy that they could probably keep going on the thrust and maybe take off, I'd consider it reaching but would suspend disbelief (maybe, if they handled it roughly) if they could land, but no way in hell would I buy they can fly it effectively in combat against even marginally trained adversaries (unless of course we accept that all villains are incompetent in the Star Wars universe, even the low level villains, and even at carrying out the basic functions of villainy like be able to fight).
Remember the scene where Rey out of nowhere puts on a helmet with the shield down and sits there with it? That was part of a flight simulator that she had scavenged and kept for herself. She had some training, and she had the force. It is the effective equivalent of young Anakin being the only human who could pod race - as Qui Gonn said, that means Jedi reflexes, which means using the force. It's also the same as Luke shooting womp rats in his T-16 and flying through Beggar's Canyon better than anyone else, and finally being the only one who could shoot down the Death Star. The force, with effectively no training in those aspects of it. And she didn't line up Finn for a triple kill shot, she lined him up for one kill. The others were already gone.

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This is another problem with the film, btw, to the extent it does address SOME of its inconsistencies, it does so with short asides that don't stand up to scrutiny. Like how Finn knows where to find the tracker on the Snoke's ship (because he was a janitor and somehow cleaned the flagship along with Star Killer base I guess--oh, and this is a plot hole too, because if he knows where it is, then it seems like by extension he ought to know it exists which means it shouldn't be a secret to anyone that the First Order can track ship through hyperspace, but I can overlook that).
Finn knew where it would be, based on the parameters of what he had been told. Basically, he knew where on the ship the tracking area was, and that's where the new one had to be. It would be like an aircraft carrier getting a new amazing radar system that could somehow track around the curve of the Earth, and a former sailor on the same class says they can tell you where the radar center is located on the ship.

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On her way there from what? Being a desert scavenger on "not Tatooine" somehow qualifies one as a martial arts master? Again, Anakin and Luke both, who were positively silly with the force, did not have the ability to move things and mind control people without training from a Jedi master. Rey does. Not only does she, but before she is even trained (beyond 5 seconds with a blaster and a pep talk from Han) she can handle her own in a light saber duel with Kylo, who actually was trained by both a Jedi master (Luke) and a whatever the heck Snoke is.
She has clearly been using the force already, in the same way that both Luke and Anakin used the force before every encountering a Jedi. She had to fight growing up, so she knew how to use her weapon. Add her connection to the force, and yes she is awesome with it. When was there ever an indication that Luke trained with a lightsaber? The few minutes on the Falcon? It sure didn't seem to be part of Yoda's curriculum. And yet, he was able to stay alive against Vader, and even get a wound in. For Rey fighting Kylo, he was severely wounded, and his connection to the force was messed up by the interaction with Han.
When did Luke get training on telekinesis? He called his lightsaber to him without ever being trained on that. He got more on Dagobah, but he had already done it.

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Consider how long the timeline of TFA and TLJ are (we're not talking years like Hope to Empire or Empire to RotJ, we're talking weeks, maybe even just days) and how rapidly Rey develops in that time and it's the same kind of problem as with the mechanic going from taxiing on the runway or knowing her way around a static display to being able to engage in advanced (compared to everything we've seen in earlier movies) abilities.
How long is the time between Empire and Jedi, or Empire and Star Wars? What reason do you have to believe it was not just a few weeks, other than there being three years between the release of the movies? If you only watched the movies, all you know for sure between Star Wars and Empire is that the Rebels have found a new base after fleeing the last one, at least Han was on Ord Mantell at some point in between, and Vader is desperately looking. Does it really seem that Vader is just now getting around to seriously looking several years later? Or would it actually be a few weeks that he decides to focus on finding the guy who blew up the Death Star? And Empire ends with "We'll meet you at the rendezvous point on Tatooine." Why would it be more than a few weeks before we pick them up on Tatooine?
Sure, the EU fills in a lot of those gaps, but you are a movie only guy, right?


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Which 1) shouldn't do much for her because Han isn't a Jedi and, so far as the movies ago (again, all most of us care about) he is not force sensitive. He is aware the force exists and that's about it, but 2) makes the stupid thing with Luke and the blade of grass all the more ridiculous. Because you're right, she DOES know something about the force already in TLJ. Clearly they just put in that scene as yet another dumb joke (like the "phone call" that kicked the whole thing off).
Yes, it was a joke. It was a joke Luke was playing on Rey. And you've made this big deal about how she had no training - if she suddenly has something happen while in her first lesson with a Jedi, why would she instantly know that she couldn't physically feel it like that?


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Far more guilty?...
Already covered.


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Kylo is only "not a threat" because this movie continues with the theme of Rogue One and TFA (continues with and magnifies) of having grossly incompetent villains who couldn't rule over a class of preschool-aged children, let alone a galaxy and yet somehow they do.
Just shot in the side by Chewie's bowcaster. That tends to affect one's ability to fight.


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She frees herself from captivity by mind controlling a stormtrooper. She uses the force several times in her duel with Kylo. and there's probably at least one more (some have argued that her ability to see the lightsaber's history when she touches it is also a force-technique, just one we've never been shown before in films, so I guess that's three and counting) but I don't care to go digging for examples. Even so, that's easily 2-3 instances of force control that Luke didn't have a handle on, if at all, until RotJ which, again, was years after New Hope, whereas so far the NT is days or weeks long.
Again, how is RotJ years after ANH?

Last edited by Darth Credence; 27 June 2018 at 04:18 PM.
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Old 27 June 2018, 04:25 PM
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From the movies, we know that Jedi training takes years because Anakin, at around 8-10 is "too old" to begin training that Obi-Wan, in his 20's, is still undergoing. Now much of that training is probably emotional control and more esoteric powers, but some of it is going to be the powers that Rey somehow instinctively knows.

Also, someone can be ridiculously overpowered and capable but still not be a Mary Sue (or Marty Stu).
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Old 27 June 2018, 05:02 PM
Jusenkyo no Pikachu Jusenkyo no Pikachu is offline
 
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On her way there from what? Being a desert scavenger on "not Tatooine" somehow qualifies one as a martial arts master? Again, Anakin and Luke both, who were positively silly with the force, did not have the ability to move things and mind control people without training from a Jedi master. Rey does. Not only does she, but before she is even trained (beyond 5 seconds with a blaster and a pep talk from Han) she can handle her own in a light saber duel with Kylo, who actually was trained by both a Jedi master (Luke) and a whatever the heck Snoke is.
Nowhere in any of the films does it say that the training was necessary for the telekinesis (in fact, the first example we see of that ability is on Hoth, where Luke uses it with no indication that he’s been trained). However, Han has seen all this cool shit from possibly three generations of Skywalkers. And Rey does say in TLJ that the Force is used to move things with the mind.

[QUOTE]Far more guilty? No. Guilty of a lesser charge? Sure, certainly when it came to flying the X-wing, but at least when it came to the 2-meter target he had that force connection with Obi-wan going for him. It wasn't necessarily a matter of moving the missiles with the force as it was taking a really well-aimed shot in the dark. But fine, whatever--at least he didn't use the force to snatch Obi-wan's lightsaber after he was dead and engage in a battle with Lord Vader that saw him coming out on top until they were separated by... something (I mean, a fissure in Rey's case, but "whatever" in Luke's, hypothetically).[QUOTE]

Obi-Wan had nothing to do with it. As Luke says, he used to bulls-eye two-metre wide creatures in his “T-16”.

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Kylo is only "not a threat" because this movie continues with the theme of Rogue One and TFA (continues with and magnifies) of having grossly incompetent villains who couldn't rule over a class of preschool-aged children, let alone a galaxy and yet somehow they do.
Allow me a bit of conjecture: Kylo Ren is a useful idiot. Snoke was off whatever-ing during the time following ROTJ, but he sensed that young Ben was like Anakin, and influenced him to do the thing and create the First Order. The only bit he didn’t count on was...well...I’m not going into spoiler territory here

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She frees herself from captivity by mind controlling a stormtrooper. She uses the force several times in her duel with Kylo. and there's probably at least one more (some have argued that her ability to see the lightsaber's history when she touches it is also a force-technique, just one we've never been shown before in films, so I guess that's three and counting) but I don't care to go digging for examples. Even so, that's easily 2-3 instances of force control that Luke didn't have a handle on, if at all, until RotJ which, again, was years after New Hope, whereas so far the NT is days or weeks long.
I thought the last one was the lightsaber calling to her using some sort of residual Force connection (Snoke?), but anyway: the Jedi and all the cool shit they pull are in fact known through stories. By the time Rey gets captured, she’s:

*Managed to survive on the shithole that is Jakku (and remember, she can already fight some).
*Heard the stories about the Jedi and the Force.
*Escaped from Jakku on the Falcon. And remember, it’s implied that she knows the ship fairly well (obviously well enough to know which button does what) and we later find out she has the Force guiding her.
*Had an adventure where she met Han, who confirmed the stories were true.
*Had the Lightsaber calling to her, reinforcing her connection to the Force.
*Talked to Maz.

And then mind-control happens, and it isn’t immediately successful. She knows she has a Force connection, and she immediately learns that she has to work on it.

And then the fight with Kylo happens, and when that happens, the playing field has been levelled by Rey figuring out a few things on her own and Kylo being physically and emotionally drained.

But I still don’t know about the thing with the kid.
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Old 27 June 2018, 06:18 PM
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From the movies, we know that Jedi training takes years because Anakin, at around 8-10 is "too old" to begin training that Obi-Wan, in his 20's, is still undergoing. Now much of that training is probably emotional control and more esoteric powers, but some of it is going to be the powers that Rey somehow instinctively knows.

Also, someone can be ridiculously overpowered and capable but still not be a Mary Sue (or Marty Stu).
We know that Jedi spend years training - we do not know that it takes years. We have also all heard about kids who end up graduating college before they are teens, indicating that even in the real world, the time that we normally spend teaching things is not necessarily the amount of time it actually takes to teach those things. And none of those kids had the discipline they were pursuing actively helping them out.
And the powers that Rey instinctively knows seem to mostly be the powers that Luke and others instinctively know. She can fly well, as could Luke and Anakin. She could use telekinesis, as could Luke. She could hold her own in a fight against a better trained person, as could Luke. I guess we never saw anyone else use mind control with no training, but we certainly didn't see Luke get any training in it before using it.
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Old 27 June 2018, 07:13 PM
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I know relatively few people saw Star Wars Rebels, but Ezra received even less training since Kanan had never completed his apprenticeship. But Ezra was also able to do extremely impressive things with little to no actual training. I think it's very well established that the Force can be used and used to great effect just by instinct alone.
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Old 28 June 2018, 02:50 AM
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Personally I don't want to form any strong opinions about Rey's Force usage until the third movie is out. While TLJ didn't move her plot forward as much as I would have liked, they still may be hinting at something causing new Force users get powers faster - hence VII's title "The Force Awakens". First Rey, then the kid at the end of TLJ, possibly countless others across the galaxy... and hopefully by the end of the third movie we'll have answers.
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Old 28 June 2018, 03:55 AM
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I've been up to my neck in this since the movie came out. I've enjoyed all the new movies, for different reasons, but they've unleashed a very unpleasant part of the fanbase.

I personally don't think the relationship between "strong Force power" and "Jedi training" is all it's cracked up to be. Learning to harness the power is only part of it. I suspect the rest is more along the lines of Jedi finishing school and indoctrination into the practices of the Order.
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Old 28 June 2018, 04:24 AM
Jusenkyo no Pikachu Jusenkyo no Pikachu is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Astra View Post
I've been up to my neck in this since the movie came out. I've enjoyed all the new movies, for different reasons, but they've unleashed a very unpleasant part of the fanbase.

I personally don't think the relationship between "strong Force power" and "Jedi training" is all it's cracked up to be. Learning to harness the power is only part of it. I suspect the rest is more along the lines of Jedi finishing school and indoctrination into the practices of the Order.
Actually, you could probably draw a parallel between that and RL martial arts. You learn almost everything you need to know at the lower ranks and the rest is just refinement.
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Old 28 June 2018, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by ASL View Post
No. I’m sorry, just no. It goes beyond mere competence to "plug in the attribute, she’s got it to its max." She is so a Mary Sue.
But she (and all the other characters) manage to walk about and not constantly soil themselves yet no one questions that?

Her inate force abilities and ability to learn new skills really really quickly are kind of the whole point. That’s why she is so dangerous to the First Order.

Also she has been surviving, pretty much alone on Jakku since she was a small child having to parkour her way around some pretty nasty beings and bang them over the head with her staff from time to time.
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Old 29 June 2018, 03:44 AM
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Frankly I don’t think Rey is anymore of a Mary Sue than some of the other characters in the Star Wars-verse, but I have grown increasingly tired of the term “Mary Sue” to begin with. Maybe it once had value, but lately, it’s become so misused that it practically means “female main character.” There are hardly ever as many fervent debates about male MCs even though we could easily make arguments about them.

Like Batman has basically been turned into an omniscient God in a pointy-eared costume. Yeah, he has all that training and is the world’s greatest detective, but he is still a human in a Bat costume and cannot possibly know everything at all times, unless like I said, he’s God. Yet try to bring this up among the fanboys and all you get is a bunch of, “Because he’s Batman!” statements over and over. And hey, I like Batman too, though I’m more into the DCAU Batman where he’s great, but still a flawed human being, and while he’s angsty and proud of his skills, he’s not such an asshole you can’t figure out why anyone would want to be around him, never mind trust him to have their back. I often wish I could do a version of the infamous “Batman slapping Robin” meme, only it’ll have the Martian Manhunter slapping Batman and going, “My planet is dead!” Because it’s not like Batman has cornered the market on tragic backstories in the DC universe.

Another good example of a male Mary Sue is James Bond, but I hesitate to call him a character, really. James Bond isn’t really a character, but a male power fantasy. He’s an empty pot that the viewers can fill in with whatever personality traits or backstory they want.

And I’m not saying you can’t enjoy James Bond or that you have to like Rey. My point is that female characters are relentlessly screened and labeled as Mary Sues at a rate that male ones aren’t. It’s probably like Candorville says in that the kneejerk assumption is that guys are strong and amazing, and therefore, no one asks as many questions as to their realism and the believability of whatever they accomplish. It’s the reason there’s endless discussions on writing Strong Female Characters, whereas you never hear the phrase “Strong Male Characters.” It’s just automatically assumed that a male character is strong and that putting the word, Strong, at the beginning, is just being redundant.

Though I find all these fanboyish complaints about how the Force can’t do X! to be rather eyeroll-worthy. Whether utilized by male or female characters, the nature of what exactly the Force can do, has always been rather nebulously defined, closer to, “Whatever the NFBSK the plot requires!” unlike Harry Potter which dictates exactly what each spell does and while wandless magic is a thing, it’s much more uncontrollable than the standard variety, so you are better off not solely relying on it.
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