snopes.com  

Go Back   snopes.com > SLC Central > Soapbox Derby

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 15 July 2018, 09:01 AM
erwins's Avatar
erwins erwins is offline
 
Join Date: 04 April 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 12,232
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
But hey, I can see that making an elderly woman wait is a bit rude. But it's rude that he didn't bow to her? Jesus, are reporters just getting bored with finding actual terrible things he's done, and now they have to write about any dumb thing they can think of as long as it's trending on Twitter?
I certainly agree that it probably wasn't even the worst thing he did that hour, but would you be equally dismissive about someone who refused to shake hands with their counterpart? After all, it is just courtesy and tradition.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 15 July 2018, 02:50 PM
ASL's Avatar
ASL ASL is offline
 
Join Date: 04 July 2003
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 5,762
Throw Tomato

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sue View Post
Anyone who thinks Trump doesn't think he's the most important person in the room hasn't been paying attention the last couple of years - or really the last couple of decades.
Donald Trump is a terrible human being and a worse President. But he is the President of the United States of America—both its head of government and its head of state. Who would be more important in a room with him?

Now, of course it’s terribly rude to keep a head of state waiting in her own country, I agree that it probably was deliberate (what with all the minions he and every other senior official has to keep his schedule), and if you can’t/won’t abide by protocol you might as well not seek or accept a visit, but that’s got nothing to do with being more or less important.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 15 July 2018, 03:32 PM
Psihala's Avatar
Psihala Psihala is offline
 
Join Date: 28 February 2001
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 8,156
Roll eyes British Prime Minister Theresa May says Trump told her to sue the E.U. over Brexit

British Prime Minister Theresa May said on Sunday that President Donald Trump advised her to take legal action against the European Union rather than negotiate Britain's exit from the bloc.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/b...er-sue-n891516
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 15 July 2018, 03:44 PM
Hans Off's Avatar
Hans Off Hans Off is offline
 
Join Date: 14 May 2004
Location: West Sussex, UK
Posts: 4,609
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sue View Post
Another article I read said Trump was a little late but it seemed longer because the Queen was early.
I find that a little hard to beleive. Her shedule is normally adhered to, to the second.

Got a link?
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 15 July 2018, 03:57 PM
Sue's Avatar
Sue Sue is offline
 
Join Date: 26 December 2011
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 9,210
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Off View Post
I find that a little hard to beleive. Her shedule is normally adhered to, to the second.

Got a link?
No, sorry, I know I saw it on either google news or MSN but it's not obvious in a quick search. Lots of articles saying things like "it's not clear if the Queen was early..." so perhaps a writer took that info and ran with it. Anyway I couldn't help thinking well of course she was early it's her bloody house! Would anyone accuse a host of being early to their own damn party? Seems like a backhanded way of trying to find an excuse, however feeble, for Trump's behavior.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 15 July 2018, 05:26 PM
crocoduck_hunter's Avatar
crocoduck_hunter crocoduck_hunter is offline
 
Join Date: 27 May 2009
Location: Roseburg, OR
Posts: 12,829
Default

Even if the Queen did show up early, I don't see how that could possibly excuse 45 not even attempting to show up on time.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 15 July 2018, 11:51 PM
RichardM RichardM is offline
 
Join Date: 27 March 2004
Location: Las Cruces, NM
Posts: 4,556
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASL View Post
But he is the President of the United States of Americaóboth its head of government and its head of state. Who would be more important in a room with him?
Almost any one else. And many presidents have had the humility and ability to separate the power of the office from themselves. Perhaps the President wields the most power, but that does not make him the most important person. The President can be replaced. That is why we also elect a vice-president.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 15 July 2018, 11:58 PM
Steve Steve is offline
 
Join Date: 19 October 2002
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 4,879
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Off View Post
I find that a little hard to beleive. Her shedule is normally adhered to, to the second.
Not for the tea, apparently:
Quote:
Britainís national news agency said they spent 47 minutes getting acquainted over tea inside the castle ó 17 minutes longer than scheduled.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 16 July 2018, 12:37 AM
ASL's Avatar
ASL ASL is offline
 
Join Date: 04 July 2003
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 5,762
Soapbox

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardM View Post
Almost any one else. And many presidents have had the humility and ability to separate the power of the office from themselves. Perhaps the President wields the most power, but that does not make him the most important person. The President can be replaced. That is why we also elect a vice-president.
Most powerful people seem to be pretty good at making others around them feel good, even important when it suits them (though they may treat their staffs rather differently, I digress). That the put on an air of humility for those around them doesn’t mean they don’t still consider themselves "the most important person in the room" when they really are... the most important person in the room.

Speak softly, big stick, and all that jazz. Trump just doesn’t speak softly and I sometimes doubt has the opposable digits to wield a big stick effectively. He appears to thrive on posturing when he doesn’t need to. It makes him look like a cretin to some, but his base doesn’t care. Actually, I bet they love it.

With all that said, you’ll have a hard time convincing me that the Queen of England (and various other Commonwealth realms) is anywhere near the level of a POTUS. She may have been the nicer, more dignified of the two, but she is not, IMHO (and I believe by any objective measure too) the more important of the two.

Terrible people can still be important, after all.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 16 July 2018, 01:03 AM
Sue's Avatar
Sue Sue is offline
 
Join Date: 26 December 2011
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 9,210
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardM View Post
Almost any one else. And many presidents have had the humility and ability to separate the power of the office from themselves. Perhaps the President wields the most power, but that does not make him the most important person. The President can be replaced. That is why we also elect a vice-president.
Not only can be replaced, eventually will be replaced. To Trump's sorrow I am sure, he is not president for life .

Anyway aside from that, the defense that Trump is automatically the most important person in the room because he is the president of the US** is weakened IMO if the person making that argument would not be saying this if we are talking about Obama when he was president or Hilary Clinton should the 2016 election have gone the other way.

**and how US-centric does someone have to be to believe this is true no matter which country they are in or who else is being discussed
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 16 July 2018, 01:12 AM
Steve Steve is offline
 
Join Date: 19 October 2002
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 4,879
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by erwins View Post
I certainly agree that it probably wasn't even the worst thing he did that hour, but would you be equally dismissive about someone who refused to shake hands with their counterpart? After all, it is just courtesy and tradition.
I don't know how I'd respond in general since I can think of different scenarios where a handshake would be refused. But if, say, a world leader had brushed aside a Trump handshake after his weird behavior with the Japanese PM, yeah, I'd be dismissive of criticism of that leader.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 16 July 2018, 01:15 AM
erwins's Avatar
erwins erwins is offline
 
Join Date: 04 April 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 12,232
Default

That seems like a pretty different scenario, unless you know of some odd behavior the Queen has engaged in while people give her a slight head nod?
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 16 July 2018, 01:31 AM
GenYus234's Avatar
GenYus234 GenYus234 is offline
 
Join Date: 02 August 2005
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 26,370
Default

A handshake is mutual, a western bow is not. While a salute is not balanced, it is closer than a bow. (AIUI, the queen does not return the bow.)
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 16 July 2018, 01:43 AM
Beachlife!'s Avatar
Beachlife! Beachlife! is offline
 
Join Date: 23 June 2001
Location: Lansing, MI
Posts: 28,585
Default

The bow perpetuates the fantasy that the royal family is somehow chosen by God and rules by divine right. I don't care if anyone bows to the queen anymore than I care if they bow to Kim Jong-un or Mickey Mouse. Just because the royal family have maintained the fantasy for the longest doesn't make it any less of a fantasy.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 16 July 2018, 01:47 AM
Sue's Avatar
Sue Sue is offline
 
Join Date: 26 December 2011
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 9,210
Default

Nothing I've read indicates that a bow or a curtsy are expected anymore. Simple common courtesy though wouldn't have come amiss. Him not bowing is a non-issue it's what he actually did that is the problem.

Quote:
There are no obligatory codes of behaviour when meeting The Queen or a member of the Royal Family, but many people wish to observe the traditional forms. For men this is a neck bow (from the head only) whilst women do a small curtsy. Other people prefer simply to shake hands in the usual way.
https://www.royal.uk/greeting-member-royal-family
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 16 July 2018, 01:55 AM
ASL's Avatar
ASL ASL is offline
 
Join Date: 04 July 2003
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 5,762
Jolly Roger

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sue View Post
Anyway aside from that, the defense that Trump is automatically the most important person in the room because he is the president of the US** is weakened IMO if the person making that argument would not be saying this if we are talking about Obama when he was president or Hilary Clinton should the 2016 election have gone the other way.

**and how US-centric does someone have to be to believe this is true no matter which country they are in or who else is being discussed
Any sitting POTUS who has held office in living memory (and quite a few before, maybe even all of them) is more important than their contemporary British monarch(s). It’d be a closer call with the PMs given how both the office of POTUS and the position of PM have morphed and that the British monarchs still held (some) powers that faded only gradually into the 19th century and it has at times been blurred what the monarch is likely to do vs what they are permitted to do.

ETA: Certainly any UK PM who has held office in living memory is also more important than their monarch, whether they want to admit it or not.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 16 July 2018, 03:54 AM
RichardM RichardM is offline
 
Join Date: 27 March 2004
Location: Las Cruces, NM
Posts: 4,556
Default

Important - no. Wielding more power - yes. These are not equal.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 16 July 2018, 04:06 AM
ASL's Avatar
ASL ASL is offline
 
Join Date: 04 July 2003
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 5,762
Default

In what sense do you consider the British monarch, who holds her largely ceremonial position by virtue of having been born, is more important?

I donít buy the replacability argument. Not that I think that should be a criteria we go off of, but letís not pretend the Queen is not also replaceable.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 16 July 2018, 07:00 AM
erwins's Avatar
erwins erwins is offline
 
Join Date: 04 April 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 12,232
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beachlife! View Post
The bow perpetuates the fantasy that the royal family is somehow chosen by God and rules by divine right. I don't care if anyone bows to the queen anymore than I care if they bow to Kim Jong-un or Mickey Mouse. Just because the royal family have maintained the fantasy for the longest doesn't make it any less of a fantasy.
Why is he meeting with her at all? If he doesn't want to show respect to the Queen because of whatever reasons, then why agree to a bunch of ceremonial stuff that is otherwise meaningless in the first place?
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 16 July 2018, 12:03 PM
Hans Off's Avatar
Hans Off Hans Off is offline
 
Join Date: 14 May 2004
Location: West Sussex, UK
Posts: 4,609
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASL View Post
In what sense do you consider the British monarch, who holds her largely ceremonial position by virtue of having been born, is more important?

I donít buy the replacability argument. Not that I think that should be a criteria we go off of, but letís not pretend the Queen is not also replaceable.
Because, Context.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
McConnell: Warrenís blistering Sessions speech broke Senate rules TallGeekyGirl Soapbox Derby 19 13 February 2017 10:04 PM
Donald Trump slammed for playing Queen's 'We Are The Champions' at RNC Sue Soapbox Derby 21 27 July 2016 11:21 PM
Trump Tells Fox He Broke The Glass Ceiling ĎOn Behalf Of Womení TallGeekyGirl Soapbox Derby 5 11 June 2016 02:42 AM
Royal Birthday: Crowds Cheer as Queen Elizabeth II Turns 90 Psihala Social Studies 2 21 April 2016 04:43 PM
Donald Trump seamlessly replaces ranting Calvin in 'Donald and Hobbes' TallGeekyGirl Fun House 7 16 December 2015 01:47 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.