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  #521  
Old 06 November 2018, 12:36 PM
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Lainie Lainie is offline
 
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Originally Posted by ChasFink View Post
Is there some subtlety of the law that further limits the ability of a parent from allowing a teen a moderate and responsible amount of alcohol?
I don't have an answer, but I'm reminded of the cashier who told me I couldn't let my then-underage daughter carry my six-pack of beer to the car (the kid was just trying to be helpful).
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  #522  
Old 06 November 2018, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
I don't have an answer, but I'm reminded of the cashier who told me I couldn't let my then-underage daughter carry my six-pack of beer to the car (the kid was just trying to be helpful).
And I'm sure the cashier didn't know what (s)he was talking about, unless the same "how do I know you're the parent" argument applies - which I doubt is any of the cashier's business. On the other hand, I do wax nostalgic for the days when I was eight and would go around the corner to buy my uncle a pack of Raleighs.
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  #523  
Old 06 November 2018, 03:01 PM
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Beachlife! Beachlife! is online now
 
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You're saying its legal to purchase alcohol and then give it to a minor and that even if its not a cashier shouldn't say anything?

In Michigan at least, the law makes it illegal to sell or furnish alcohol to a minor. If a cashier were to sell alcohol which is then given to a minor in view of the cashier he/she could be fined heavily. This would almost certainly result in loss of one's job too.
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  #524  
Old 06 November 2018, 03:10 PM
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I wasn't furnishing alcohol to anyone.

I'm sure the cashier was just being overcautious. I carried the six-pack until we were out of her sight, then handed it to my daughter.
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  #525  
Old 06 November 2018, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Beachlife! View Post
You're saying its legal to purchase alcohol and then give it to a minor and that even if its not a cashier shouldn't say anything?

In Michigan at least, the law makes it illegal to sell or furnish alcohol to a minor. If a cashier were to sell alcohol which is then given to a minor in view of the cashier he/she could be fined heavily. This would almost certainly result in loss of one's job too.
In Ohio, as in New York, it is legal for a parent to serve alcohol to their child of any age. I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure the law would also allow "furnishing" them a recently purchased and sealed six-pack to carry. This boils down to whether Lainie is or is not the parent or legal guardian of the child, or whether carrying that sealed six-pack - with a clearly expressed intent to only transport it to the car, not drink it - would be illegal if Lainie is not the parent. (Would it be illegal for an unrelated 18-year-old store employee to carry it to the car?) Again I'm not sure, but I don't think a grocery store clerk (which I'm assuming it was) has the authority or obligation to establish that in this case no violation occurred after the purchase was complete. I could be wrong, of course.
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  #526  
Old 06 November 2018, 03:33 PM
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I don't think Lainie did anything wrong. But, I wouldn't fault the cashier if he/she felt there was danger of getting fined, reprimanded or fired.
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  #527  
Old 06 November 2018, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Beachlife! View Post
I don't think Lainie did anything wrong. But, I wouldn't fault the cashier if he/she felt there was danger of getting fined, reprimanded or fired.
Agreed on both counts, but I would still characterize it as overreaction.
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  #528  
Old 06 November 2018, 03:45 PM
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The cashier has no plausible way of telling either whether Lainie actually is the legal parent, or whether the minor she's handing the beer to is going to drink any of it. Nor does the cashier have any way of telling, in advance, whether Lainie's actually a state agent looking for places in violation of the law. That's a thing that happens, certainly in NY, and I expect in other states as well.

It's certainly possible that USA laws relating to alcohol are silly and/or unreasonable. But the cashier's not responsible for the way the laws are written -- and the cashier most definitely is responsible, as far as the law directly affects their job, for enforcing those laws.
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  #529  
Old 06 November 2018, 03:51 PM
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The cashier was making a judgement call which could affect his/her job. Its not an overreaction to make a minor request of a customer if one's job is at stake.
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  #530  
Old 06 November 2018, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChasFink View Post
Would it be illegal for an unrelated 18-year-old store employee to carry it to the car?
I suspect so. Underage cashiers generally aren't allowed to ring up alcohol, so I imagine transporting it (and stocking it?) would be similarly illegal.

It's the same here. NS doesn't typically allow alcohol to be sold in places where other products are (except for cannabis now, yeeeaaahh) but when the grocery store I worked at got a one-day license to sell the owner's new wine, we had to direct anyone purchasing it to the cashes staffed by over-19s.
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  #531  
Old 06 November 2018, 04:50 PM
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I don't fault the cashier. For the record, though, she also didn't have, or ask for, any proof that DD was underage.

ETA: Laws about alcohol are frustratingly inconsistent and, IMO, odd/pointless. In Ohio, for example, the underage cashier can't scan the beer or wine, but after it's scanned they can place it in the bag/cart. Then there's the nonsense around Sunday sales: allowed at Store A but not Store B, even though they're across the street from each other, because they're in different jurisdictions (actual example from a Columbus suburb).
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  #532  
Old 06 November 2018, 04:58 PM
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When I worked at a grocery store we were taught that we weren't supposed to sell alcohol to someone we suspected was buying it for someone who is underage, even if the person who is actually buying it is old enough. If a group came into the store who looked like some members could possibly be underage, we were supposed to ID everyone in the group, not just the person making the purchase. But we were also told to use common sense -- if it was obviously a parent shopping with their kids we didn't have to ID the kids. But if it wasn't obvious, we were to use our discretion, and I imagine some might err on the side of caution.

The thing about Laine's situation, though, is that the cashier did sell her the beer, so presumably the cashier did believe that she was her daughter and not just some teenager she was buying beer for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beejtronic View Post
I suspect so. Underage cashiers generally aren't allowed to ring up alcohol, so I imagine transporting it (and stocking it?) would be similarly illegal.
Similarly, only employees who were over 18 were allowed to fetch cigarettes for customers (which were kept behind the customer service counter).
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  #533  
Old 06 November 2018, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by WildaBeast View Post
The thing about Laine's situation, though, is that the cashier did sell her the beer, so presumably the cashier did believe that she was her daughter and not just some teenager she was buying beer for.
But the cashier's judgment is based on the situation as they see it at the time. The person buying the alcohol turning and handing it to someone* the cashier has concluded is a minor, but likely the person's child, may change the calculus in the cashier's mind, of the risk that the person buying is furnishing to a minor. It doesn't even mean the cashier no longer thinks it's a parent and kid and no furnishing is happening, it just might mean that the cashier now thinks it's a less defensible/more likely to be questioned sale.

Not much the cashier can do after the sale though. Telling someone that they can't let their kid carry alcohol might be overstepping the law (depending on what the laws are) and doesn't undo a questionable sale if it was questionable when it happened.

* Not saying this is what Lainie did -- just making an example of what could happen.
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  #534  
Old 06 November 2018, 06:13 PM
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ChasFink ChasFink is offline
 
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I was going to come back to say there are a lot of (to me) unknown factors that would ultimately determine if this was an overreaction, but after reading what was posted here since I last looked, I see the following:
  • The law, or at least practice, in Ohio allows minors, or at least minor employees, to handle packaged beer after sale.
  • The beer was sold to Lainie with her daughter present, so any suspicion that the purchase was for this apparently underage person should have been expressed at the time of purchase.
  • They were told the daughter couldn't carry the beer, not that there was a suspicion she would drink it.
  • If there was suspicion that she would drink it, that suspicion shouldn't go away if Lainie reverses course and takes it out of the store herself.
  • The statement that the daughter "couldn't" carry the beer was made on an assumption that she was underage, but (based on Lainie's description of the event) she looked old enough to possibly be 21. The cashier should have at least determined her age before making the statement.

I therefore conclude it was overreaction.

Chas "Beating A Dead Horse For No Good Reason" Fink

Last edited by ChasFink; 06 November 2018 at 06:19 PM. Reason: Additional points for conclusion added.
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  #535  
Old 06 November 2018, 06:38 PM
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AIUI, with regard to selling alcohol, being underage is the default legal status, being of legal age needs to be "proved" either with ID or having an appearance old enough to not require ID. So anyone who didn't show ID or appear significantly older than 21 is legally underage.

And the fact that an 18 year old employee can legally sell alcohol has nothing to do with a non-employee possessing alcohol. Note that most underage laws regarding alcohol don't require the underage person to be drinking it, just possessing it.
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  #536  
Old 06 November 2018, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChasFink View Post
I therefore conclude it was overreaction.
Which is really easy to say, since you weren't there. I note that Lainie did not blame the cashier, and just found it a little inconvenient.

I was in a liquor store, when they were still state run, and a barely legal young man came in to buy booze with his underage friends. The store kicked them all out. They were not allowed to sell the booze to the legal person, because he was accompanied by his underage friends. I'm sure they felt it was an overreaction (since, if he'd come in alone, there would have been no issue), but such is life with weird alcohol laws.

Seaboe
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  #537  
Old 06 November 2018, 07:47 PM
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The then owner of my favorite wine store stopped my daughter from carrying out the bottle I'd just purchased when she was underaged. Reason being was that if she carried it out then it had the appearance that she'd bought it. The owner was just unwilling to give any bad appearance lest someone see her and call it in to the state. It could open up a lot of unnecessary hassle and could even jeopardize her license.
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  #538  
Old 07 November 2018, 01:06 AM
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I was with my husband at a grocery store when he bought a six pack of NA beer(which I understand still has a small amount of alcohol), and I was proofed.
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  #539  
Old 07 November 2018, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
AIUI, with regard to selling alcohol, being underage is the default legal status, being of legal age needs to be "proved" either with ID or having an appearance old enough to not require ID. So anyone who didn't show ID or appear significantly older than 21 is legally underage.
But the cashier didn't say "I need to see proof if she's going to do that", but rather "She can't do that."

Quote:
Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
And the fact that an 18 year old employee can legally sell alcohol has nothing to do with a non-employee possessing alcohol. Note that most underage laws regarding alcohol don't require the underage person to be drinking it, just possessing it.
If an employee is allowed to handle the stuff after purchase - which I believe constitutes possession, if only for the moment - then I might think a non-employee would be allowed to do the same. Of course the law could be written very specifically on this matter, but it was only a part of my argument in any case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaboe Muffinchucker View Post
Which is really easy to say, since you weren't there. I note that Lainie did not blame the cashier, and just found it a little inconvenient.

I was in a liquor store, when they were still state run, and a barely legal young man came in to buy booze with his underage friends. The store kicked them all out. They were not allowed to sell the booze to the legal person, because he was accompanied by his underage friends. I'm sure they felt it was an overreaction (since, if he'd come in alone, there would have been no issue), but such is life with weird alcohol laws.

Seaboe
I didn't say I blamed the cashier for anything, I said it was an overreaction, as in "I probably wouldn't do it myself and I think it's being overly cautious." Remember, the beer was Lainie's at that point, and unless the cashier has the right to rescind the sale, I didn't see what (s)he could have done about it, or what purpose it would serve...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibbie View Post
The then owner of my favorite wine store stopped my daughter from carrying out the bottle I'd just purchased when she was underaged. Reason being was that if she carried it out then it had the appearance that she'd bought it. The owner was just unwilling to give any bad appearance lest someone see her and call it in to the state. It could open up a lot of unnecessary hassle and could even jeopardize her license.
...until I read this. Now that's logical - a store policy (which may or may not be enforceable) that "prohibits" a possible minor from carrying the stuff out because of appearances from outside the store. If that was what was happening, I change my opinion. It was not an overreaction, it was a case of a cashier not explaining a policy that seemed silly on the surface to the customer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smittykins View Post
I was with my husband at a grocery store when he bought a six pack of NA beer(which I understand still has a small amount of alcohol), and I was proofed.
Many things contain a small amount of alcohol, but that doesn't make them alcoholic beverages. Orange juice sometimes has more alcohol in it than most NA beers, and naturally carbonated sodas (a rarity these days, but something my elementary school served to first and second graders at special events) are in the same ballpark. However, since this was a beer-like product, the laws may class it with beer to avoid it being a gateway beverage. Or the store just can't be bothered to make the distinction. In any case it's odd that you weren't the one making the purchase, but got proofed anyway. They probably thought your husband was going to get you all liquored up on the stuff.
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  #540  
Old 07 November 2018, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by ChasFink View Post
I said it was an overreaction, as in "I probably wouldn't do it myself and I think it's being overly cautious."
Yes, and my point--that such a thing is easy to say when you are looking at an event you were not present for, and in hindsight--also still stands.

Seaboe
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