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  #21  
Old 30 July 2009, 09:03 PM
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Artemis Artemis is offline
 
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Cesar's methods don't seem all that...well, useful, either. They kind of seem to be, "Project energy! BE the pack leader."

How do you guys feel about Victoria Stillwell? She's got a show called "It's Me or the Dog" which seems a lot better.
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  #22  
Old 30 July 2009, 09:05 PM
Ryda Wong, EBfCo. Ryda Wong, EBfCo. is offline
 
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I couldn't agree more.
Which is what everyone else has been saying as well.
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  #23  
Old 30 July 2009, 11:25 PM
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I read the article you linked. Your description of it is inaccurate.
Looks like I gave the wrong link to the wrong article, and it looks like Ryda already linked the one I intended already. *fist shake*
Artemis-I like Victoria Stillwell. Technically she is using "domination" behavior, but in a different, more loving way-she gets the dogs to obey because they like it, not because they're thinking "OH HOLY CRAP, I'M GOING TO DIE IF I DON'T OBEY!" like Cesar's methods do (to put an anthopormorphic spin to it).
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  #24  
Old 30 July 2009, 11:50 PM
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I agree with the opinion that the methods are useful for some dogs that, in the words of my K9 school trainer, need their ass kicked. Our program picked dogs with a great deal of aggressiveness and play drive, so they'd make good sniffer dogs. However, that often meant picking very dominant minded dogs (often Malinois) who'd sometimes turn on the handler or refuse to work in the prescribed manner.

It's hard to explain, but there are just sometimes you just have to let the dog know who's in charge. This is especially important when your in an environment where the dog would be afraid (hundreds of loud semis, hot pavement) and not want to go, you must not show fear and get them motivated to search. The instructors would always tell us that emotions run down-leash. The K9 picks up on all your emotions, and works or doesn't work based on how you're doing that day.
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  #25  
Old 31 July 2009, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Kitsune27 View Post
Looks like I gave the wrong link to the wrong article, and it looks like Ryda already linked the one I intended already. *fist shake*
Artemis-I like Victoria Stillwell. Technically she is using "domination" behavior, but in a different, more loving way-she gets the dogs to obey because they like it, not because they're thinking "OH HOLY CRAP, I'M GOING TO DIE IF I DON'T OBEY!" like Cesar's methods do (to put an anthopormorphic spin to it).
You know I used to watch Ceasar on Dog Whisperer quite a bit, and I don't know if you were watching the same show at all.

Yes, he did use dominant behavior. He believes that dogs are dogs and should be treated like dogs not people. Not because dogs are less than people, but because they are dogs, and there is nothing wrong with being a dog. I never saw him harsh or mean or threatening to a dog. This was true even when he was bitten. His philosophy was that it's never the dog that's the problem it's the owner usually because they want to treat the dog like a human and allows the dog to dominate them. He does this through exercise, "the power of the walk" because they get bored in one place all the time, and not allowing the dog to use dominance behavior on the human. The human has got to be the "Pack leader." Now I know people don't agree with his philosophy, but accusing him of being borderline abusive really isn't fair. Anyone who abused their dog claiming they were using Cesar Milan's techniques isn't doing it right. IMHO.

P&LL, Syl
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  #26  
Old 31 July 2009, 12:11 AM
Ryda Wong, EBfCo. Ryda Wong, EBfCo. is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Sylvanz View Post
Now I know people don't agree with his philosophy, but accusing him of being borderline abusive really isn't fair. Anyone who abused their dog claiming they were using Cesar Milan's techniques isn't doing it right. IMHO.

P&LL, Syl
Strangling dogs, "flooding" dogs, and "alpha rolling" dogs are borderline abusive behaviors for most dogs. They may work on a few extreme cases, but they are the exception to the rule.
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  #27  
Old 31 July 2009, 12:15 AM
Ryda Wong, EBfCo. Ryda Wong, EBfCo. is offline
 
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Originally Posted by DoubleNaughtSaleen View Post
It's hard to explain, but there are just sometimes you just have to let the dog know who's in charge.
But there are different ways of doing that, and most dogs don't require the excessive techniques Millan uses, even most of the dogs he uses it on.

A good working line Mal is very different than just about any dog out there, even well-bred performance dogs that work in other venues. For example, if you tried to train most other herding dogs for ring work, schutzhund, or other bite-and-defense work in the same way you trained a Mal, you'd screw up your dog for life. If you used the same techniques on a pit or dogue, you'd end up with a viscious dog. And even most mals can't put up with it. That's why the real K9 dogs are so expensive to obtain.
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  #28  
Old 31 July 2009, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo. View Post
Strangling dogs, "flooding" dogs, and "alpha rolling" dogs are borderline abusive behaviors for most dogs. They may work on a few extreme cases, but they are the exception to the rule.
I think you need to watch a little Dog Whisperer. He never strangles dogs and the alpha rolls are used on what he calls "red zone" dogs. Dogs that are extremely agressive/vicious; dogs that want to kill.

I echo what Sylvanz said and add that he doesn't use excessive techniques to show a dog who's in charge. I don't know where you're getting what you're saying. I've never seen him abuse a dog.

I would never need to use Milan's techniques because my dogs were always raised to mind. They're like my kids. They're good kids, giving me little grief. Some owners need to be taught and that's most of what Milan is about, once he takes control away from the dog. His philosophy is "exercise, discipline, and limitations." That's not punishment. That's not abuse. Discipline.
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  #29  
Old 31 July 2009, 12:38 AM
Ryda Wong, EBfCo. Ryda Wong, EBfCo. is offline
 
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Originally Posted by tagurit View Post
I think you need to watch a little Dog Whisperer. He never strangles dogs and the alpha rolls are used on what he calls "red zone" dogs. Dogs that are extremely agressive/vicious; dogs that want to kill.
Which is going to cause many of those dogs FURTHER issues. Alpha rolling is just about the dumbest "training technique" ever invented.
And, strangling, just one example.

http://channel.nationalgeographic.co...ideos/05198_00


Quote:
I echo what Sylvanz said and add that he doesn't use excessive techniques to show a dog who's in charge. I don't know where you're getting what you're saying. I've never seen him abuse a dog.
The flooding techniques he uses frequently are totally inappropriate in the majority of cases.

Quote:
His philosophy is "exercise, discipline, and limitations." That's not punishment. That's not abuse. Discipline.
It isn't positive, reward-based training either. Reward based training is the most appropriate method for the majority of dogs. Period.

ETA": Seriously, if all the expert links don't sway what you believe, none of us will. You can believe what you like, but that man would never lay a hand on any of my animals in a million years.
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  #30  
Old 31 July 2009, 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Sylvanz View Post
You know I used to watch Ceasar on Dog Whisperer quite a bit, and I don't know if you were watching the same show at all.

Yes, he did use dominant behavior. He believes that dogs are dogs and should be treated like dogs not people. Not because dogs are less than people, but because they are dogs, and there is nothing wrong with being a dog. I never saw him harsh or mean or threatening to a dog. This was true even when he was bitten. His philosophy was that it's never the dog that's the problem it's the owner usually because they want to treat the dog like a human and allows the dog to dominate them. He does this through exercise, "the power of the walk" because they get bored in one place all the time, and not allowing the dog to use dominance behavior on the human. The human has got to be the "Pack leader." Now I know people don't agree with his philosophy, but accusing him of being borderline abusive really isn't fair. Anyone who abused their dog claiming they were using Cesar Milan's techniques isn't doing it right. IMHO.

P&LL, Syl
I suppose I did in fact watch a different show, because I saw him do things like this and wondered why he had a show.
If I were that dog, dang right I would obey if someone punted my flank, because I wouldn't want to get choked again (choke chains are supposed to be used for a quick yank and release).
As for alpha rolling, it is my understanding (from speaking with a few people that work with wolves and African Painted Dogs) that wild canids use it as a demonstration of "I could kill you, but I choose not to, so obey me and it'll be fine." Dogs should not obey because they are afraid.
I will agree with you though that he is good with getting the owners to understand that dogs are dogs and they need to correct their behavior as well.

ETA: Spanked by Ryda again!
Curse you NutraSweet (does not digest well)!!
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  #31  
Old 31 July 2009, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Kitsune27 View Post
As for alpha rolling, it is my understanding (from speaking with a few people that work with wolves and African Painted Dogs) that wild canids use it as a demonstration of "I could kill you, but I choose not to, so obey me and it'll be fine." Dogs should not obey because they are afraid.
As the link Ryda cited said, wild canids don't use alpha rolling at all. A lower ranking dog will often roll over and show their belly, but they do that on their own, the alpha male does not do it to them. Even if wolves did use it, dogs are not wolves. Feral dogs do not live as wolves, they do not even form large associations. The social interactions, and the psychology, of wolves and dogs are very different.

ETA: I agree with you that dogs should not obey because they are in fear for their life. There is very rarely any need to inject even a little fear into a dog. While some few dogs are genuinely attempting to play power games, almost all dogs really really want to make their owners happy. Punishment based systems will not work on these dogs, because they do not address the issue; most dogs want to make you happy, but do not yet understand what it is you want. You have not yet managed to communicate it to them clearly. Punishing them will not communicate what you want them to do more clearly. Rewards based systems are best for almost all dogs, because they work on the real communication issue, not some imagined dominance issue. And even for the very few dogs who are actually struggling for control, things like alpha rolls are likely to result in a fearful, sneaky dog.

Last edited by geminilee; 31 July 2009 at 01:21 AM.
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  #32  
Old 31 July 2009, 01:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo. View Post
He's not strangling the dog. The dog is doing everything, himself. And, the collar is up high, not around the throat.

We'll have to agree to disagree. You tell me he causes issues with the dogs, but did you see the reunion show, after 2 or 3 seasons? Lots and lots of happy owners with lots of happy dogs.
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  #33  
Old 31 July 2009, 01:42 AM
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Originally Posted by geminilee View Post
As the link Ryda cited said, wild canids don't use alpha rolling at all. A lower ranking dog will often roll over and show their belly, but they do that on their own, the alpha male does not do it to them. Even if wolves did use it, dogs are not wolves. Feral dogs do not live as wolves, they do not even form large associations. The social interactions, and the psychology, of wolves and dogs are very different.
The person that I was referring to mentioned that her packs used it when a subordinate got a little too"uppity," but I understand her packs are not all packs. I'm sorry I didn't convey that in my posting. for me.
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  #34  
Old 31 July 2009, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Sylvanz View Post
Yes, he did use dominant behavior. He believes that dogs are dogs and should be treated like dogs not people. Not because dogs are less than people, but because they are dogs,
This is what I get from the shows. In most cases that I've seen, the owners have allowed the dog to become the alpha in the home pack. He challenges the dog's alpha status. That's not always pretty, but it's not pretty in wolf packs either (and Milan does it a lot quicker).

We're not watching Milan rolling a subordinate dog (which would roll of its own accord to show submission), we're watching him rolling the current pack leader as part of what is basically a leadership challenge.

Being pack leader is stressful for dogs - a lot of responsibility to make decisions on what is safe for their pack. Most of them seem a lot happier and far more relaxed when the humans take that role from them and the dogs don't feel their responsible for the pack's welfare. Unfortunately for dogs that believe they're in charge, the act of wresting away leadership can seem pretty harsh to us (no harsher than you'd see in the wild though).

I still find him annoying with all his new age waffle about energy. The UK's Dog Borstal show is an interesting contrast - 3 dogs, 3 different trainers with different approaches (one is a police/security dog trainer/handler) and it is a week's course on an old airbase. There is emphasis on "taking control", but the techniques are different. Sometimes there are failures due to dogs that were out-and-out aggressive or were just wrong for that owner (one was an American Bull Terrier and was so dominant and everything-aggressive in spite of all the behavioural work that it had to be destroyed due to being dangerous).
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  #35  
Old 31 July 2009, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by llewtrah View Post
This is what I get from the shows. In most cases that I've seen, the owners have allowed the dog to become the alpha in the home pack. He challenges the dog's alpha status. That's not always pretty, but it's not pretty in wolf packs either (and Milan does it a lot quicker).

We're not watching Milan rolling a subordinate dog (which would roll of its own accord to show submission), we're watching him rolling the current pack leader as part of what is basically a leadership challenge.
Thank you for expressing my thoughts much more clearly than I could. Time and again on the show owners say they've been advised by professionals to put their vicious/unmanageable dog down. If Milan can salvage these dogs, enlighten their owners and make the community safer for it, then I say well done.
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  #36  
Old 31 July 2009, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
How do you guys feel about Victoria Stillwell? She's got a show called "It's Me or the Dog" which seems a lot better.

I like her, and have started using some of her techniques with my own dogs such as walking gently into them when they start inching their way into my small kitchen. I agree with her stance that training is forever and you must be consistent.
Many of those dogs on her show make mine look like perfect angels!
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  #37  
Old 31 July 2009, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by llewtrah View Post
This is what I get from the shows. In most cases that I've seen, the owners have allowed the dog to become the alpha in the home pack. He challenges the dog's alpha status. That's not always pretty, but it's not pretty in wolf packs either (and Milan does it a lot quicker).

We're not watching Milan rolling a subordinate dog (which would roll of its own accord to show submission), we're watching him rolling the current pack leader as part of what is basically a leadership challenge.

Being pack leader is stressful for dogs - a lot of responsibility to make decisions on what is safe for their pack. Most of them seem a lot happier and far more relaxed when the humans take that role from them and the dogs don't feel their responsible for the pack's welfare. Unfortunately for dogs that believe they're in charge, the act of wresting away leadership can seem pretty harsh to us (no harsher than you'd see in the wild though).

I still find him annoying with all his new age waffle about energy. The UK's Dog Borstal show is an interesting contrast - 3 dogs, 3 different trainers with different approaches (one is a police/security dog trainer/handler) and it is a week's course on an old airbase. There is emphasis on "taking control", but the techniques are different. Sometimes there are failures due to dogs that were out-and-out aggressive or were just wrong for that owner (one was an American Bull Terrier and was so dominant and everything-aggressive in spite of all the behavioural work that it had to be destroyed due to being dangerous).
That's been pretty much my take on the show as well. The techniques of his that we use are giving our boxer lots of exercise. She loves a nice long walk. She's happier and more relaxed. When we walk, she heels. She's a working breed dog, so that's the job we give her. Don't they always say working dogs function better when they know their jobs? How is that abuse? We don't do anything mean to tell her to heel. We just give the command and go. She looks to us for guidance on where to go. She sits when we stop (also standard from what I understand) and she stands and walks when we go. I don't understand why giving her a job and having her trained to walk on a leash (and expecting her to follow her training) would be a bad technique.

I mean, they state pretty clearly at the beginning of the show that they are showing trained professionals and that you shouldn't emulate his techniques without guidance from a professional dog trainer. Sure that's CYA, but it's also common sense IMO.

Also, Ryda, you're using some jargon that not everyone understands. Can you please explain what "flooding" even means? Because I have no idea.
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  #38  
Old 31 July 2009, 05:02 PM
Ryda Wong, EBfCo. Ryda Wong, EBfCo. is offline
 
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Originally Posted by PallasAthena View Post
How is that abuse?
Who said that was abuse? The issue being taken with his methods are the fact that he doesn't use positive motivation, that he has some pretty serious misunderstandings of canine psychology, and that he's often too rough with dogs who don't need it. ETA: since I tend to train my dogs to a CDX level of obedience and do agility and herding with them, I'm certainly not anti-training. I am anti-millan's methods of training, just as I'm anti-retro-jerk-and-pinch training (like the way they used to train dogs to accept a dumbell, by pinching their ears to get them to yelp and then shoving the dumbell in the mouth)

Quote:
Also, Ryda, you're using some jargon that not everyone understands. Can you please explain what "flooding" even means? Because I have no idea.
His "flooding" thing is when he forces a dog around a fear source without allowing it to leave and without encouraging it whatsoever.
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  #39  
Old 31 July 2009, 05:11 PM
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Oh, well, maybe I misunderstood what you're saying then. I was under the impression that all of his techniques were no good. The biggest thing I see him preaching is, "WALK YOUR DOGS PEOPLE!" This seems like common sense to me. Since that's what the show revolves around in a huge way, I didn't understand if it was the way in which he walks the dogs that was a problem. The main thing I notice about the way he walks is that he keeps them heeled.
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  #40  
Old 31 July 2009, 05:26 PM
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I think there's a different approach to "re-training" a dog who has learned behaviour but has never been actually "trained", to training a dog with no training at all. The latter would be, really, a puppy. But what little of seen in shows like "Dog Whisperer" or "At The End of My Leash", it is that owners have been completely lax and done *nothing* to control their dog's behaviour - and the dogs basically go to whatever limits have been set for them. In most cases, there were no limits.

Not every dog needs this "re-training" but I would have to say that it probably needs to involve stronger tactics than "original" training, and it makes for a lot of drama. Training puppies with the usual reward-based training is boring and usually reserved for non-prime-time filler on public television, or at least that's where it was in the days before specialty channels.
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