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  #21  
Old 13 January 2018, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by NobleHunter View Post
I never feel quite as stupid as when I can't parse someone's accent or dialect. I speak English, I should be able to understand people who are speaking English.
Maybe it's because I grew up in Quebec but I'm not going to beat myself up over not being able to understand someone who speaks to me in heavily accented English. I try my best and that's as much as I can do!
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  #22  
Old 13 January 2018, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by NobleHunter View Post
I never feel quite as stupid as when I can't parse someone's accent or dialect. I speak English, I should be able to understand people who are speaking English.
I got a technical sales call from a guy today with a VERY thick Indian accent. What with it being technical, fast, and heavily accented I ended up missing chunks of his questions repeatedly. I think I came across as an idiot since I kept asking him what he had said and then repeating it to him, often wrongly.
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  #23  
Old 13 January 2018, 01:21 AM
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Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
I can't prove it, but I would guess that "suspicion of being in the country illegally" too often consists of looking and/or sounding Hispanic and not having a SS card or US passport on your person.
We can probably safely assume that the Right conducts morality tests via how many commas before the decimal point in your bank statement or the paper bag test. Though among the GOP, money can make up for a lot. Maybe if we could turn illegal immigrants into Fortune 500 corporations, the Right would bust their backs to protect their rights.

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Originally Posted by E. Q. Taft View Post
I do think any immigration crackdown ought to focus on businesses that knowingly hire undocumented workers -- and most particularly on any that commit labor abuses in the process; and on punishing the business owners and managers complicit in the hiring, rather than on just grabbing the workers themselves.
That's about what I feel. The "Illegal Immigrants do the jobs Americans won't do" meme while it is somewhat true, a more accurate statement would be "Illegal Immigrants do the jobs that Americans used to do until corporations were like, 'Y'know we could hire American workers and pay full wages and benefits or we could prey on the desperation of non-English speakers so desperate for work and afraid of getting caught, that we can pretty much get away with anything.'"

Yeah, I need a shorter way of putting it, but it is true. If there's something, anything, a Corporation can do to cut expenses, they will. So hell yeah, they'll prey on the unfortunate.

Though I had assumed Illegal Immigration would be one of those issues that the GOP would be bellicose about, but not really do anything about it. While Racism has been a key part of their platform for ages, another key part is fellating the rich. I figured in a contest between racism and greed, love of filthy filthy lucre would win out.

I was wrong.

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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
Which would be all very well if there were actually a legal way for most people who want or need to come here to get into the country.

If people are going to go hungry or be subjected to violence where they are -- and going to have to watch their children going hungry and/or being beaten, raped, and/or murdered -- then those who can are going to go where the food and/or the safety are. Wouldn't you?
As many have pointed out and will point out, our immigration rules/regulations are pretty antiquated and racist, dating back to a time in which most of our immigrants were coming in from Europe. So it's damn hard to become a legal citizen. Though it seems the reoccurring theme with the anti-Immigrants.

Anti-Immigrants: We're not opposed to immigrants, just illegal ones!

Anti-Immigrants *proceed to make it impossible for anyone to legally immigrate*

To go with your second paragraph, so many of the immigrants coming in from Mexico and Central America, are people fleeing the Narco Wars. I think of it this way: If your neighbor was fleeing a serial killer and ducked inside your house via an unlocked back door to save themselves, would you still bust them for breaking and entering?

It's an inaccurate metaphor in that unlike a house, America isn't owned and controlled by one person, no matter how much Trump insists otherwise.
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  #24  
Old 13 January 2018, 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
Though I had assumed Illegal Immigration would be one of those issues that the GOP would be bellicose about, but not really do anything about it. While Racism has been a key part of their platform for ages, another key part is fellating the rich. I figured in a contest between racism and greed, love of filthy filthy lucre would win out.

I was wrong.
I don't know about that, Mouse. Most of the things we've seen involving crackdowns on illegal immigrants seem like they're quite like airport security measures in that they're showing and make things harder for ordinary Americans but don't have a significant effect on the actual issue.
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  #25  
Old 13 January 2018, 04:06 AM
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You might want to rethink the sexual metaphor.
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  #26  
Old 13 January 2018, 07:54 PM
jimmy101_again jimmy101_again is offline
 
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When an undocumented worker works for 7-Eleven, what happens to the tax withholding that 7-Eleven sends to the Feds every month? Presumably the worker would be using a fake SSN. Woildn't the gov't make more off an undocumented worker since, at that income level, nearly all of the withholding would go back to the person when they filled their taxes but that can't happen if the SSN is fake or belongs to someone else.
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  #27  
Old 13 January 2018, 10:23 PM
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That is one question I've always had, jimmy. The taxes withheld at source are supposed to be in the neighbourhood of the taxes that would be collected by the government. The undocumented worker working for a company would collect said taxes and remit them. The worker would not benefit directly from those taxes. The government should actually pull up ahead... no?

Let's discount the other aspects of undocumented workers that do impact the economy and just focus on the taxation bit.

I'm certain there is a significant net gain overall for workers at 7-11 when it comes to taxes.
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  #28  
Old 14 January 2018, 01:20 PM
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jimmy, the figures I could find says that people working illegally in the US paid about 7 to 12 billion into Social Security, most of which is never paid out to them.

mouse, I think you are right about companies finding great new ways to reduce costs by just paying immigrants (legal and illegal) less, which is why I think we need to toughen up on immigration. My BIL worked at insulating houses and made good money. The company then asked him to train about 10 guys from Central America to do the work, and they were paid about 1/3 of what he was. He asked the boss what would happen to him when those guys were trained, and the boss said it was all good, he would be needed to supervise their work. A lot of the other guys...well, they were not willing to take a 2/3 pay cut, so they left. My BIL said the guys from Central America were all willing to live like 6 guys to an apartment and eat a lot of beans and rice, since they were just here to send money home. He had a home HERE, with a family to support. After about a year, the boss said they really didn't need that many people to supervise the guys from Central America, so my BIL was let go.

BIL had NO problems with the guys from Central America, even the ones who had bad papers. They were really nice, hard working, and willing to do what they needed to in order to feed their families, but the company was just eager to cut labor rates by 2/3 so the owner could have more money (ya know, trickle down and all.)
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  #29  
Old 14 January 2018, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by NobleHunter View Post
I never feel quite as stupid as when I can't parse someone's accent or dialect. I speak English, I should be able to understand people who are speaking English.
I worked at a call center for about 2 years. I dreaded calls from the Deep South as I had a very very hard time understanding them. I still don't know how the one (extremely polite) boy managed to turn his surname- Hill- into a three if not four syllable name. I had to have him spell it to me.
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  #30  
Old 14 January 2018, 04:22 PM
UrbanLegends101 UrbanLegends101 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by kitap View Post
I worked at a call center for about 2 years. I dreaded calls from the Deep South as I had a very very hard time understanding them. I still don't know how the one (extremely polite) boy managed to turn his surname- Hill- into a three if not four syllable name. I had to have him spell it to me.
At my last employment location outside the United States, I had a purchasing agent whom I thought had excellent English skills, although granted, Arabic was his first language, so he had a little accent.

He was talking with a vendor in South Carolina who spoke Su'thern and I had to translate between the two. Growing in Gawja, Su'thern is my second langauge.
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  #31  
Old 15 January 2018, 02:21 AM
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Originally Posted by dfresh View Post
mouse, I think you are right about companies finding great new ways to reduce costs by just paying immigrants (legal and illegal) less, which is why I think we need to toughen up on immigration. My BIL worked at insulating houses and made good money. The company then asked him to train about 10 guys from Central America to do the work, and they were paid about 1/3 of what he was. He asked the boss what would happen to him when those guys were trained, and the boss said it was all good, he would be needed to supervise their work. A lot of the other guys...well, they were not willing to take a 2/3 pay cut, so they left. My BIL said the guys from Central America were all willing to live like 6 guys to an apartment and eat a lot of beans and rice, since they were just here to send money home. He had a home HERE, with a family to support. After about a year, the boss said they really didn't need that many people to supervise the guys from Central America, so my BIL was let go.

BIL had NO problems with the guys from Central America, even the ones who had bad papers. They were really nice, hard working, and willing to do what they needed to in order to feed their families, but the company was just eager to cut labor rates by 2/3 so the owner could have more money (ya know, trickle down and all.)
Thatís pretty much what I suspect. If given a choice between hiring an American and having to pay wages/benefits and follow all those pesky labor laws, or preying upon the desperation of foreigners who wonít say anything about what they do because theyíre afraid of being deported, they would choose the second option. Businesses/corporations exist to turn a profit for their owners, so the owners are going to exploit whatever loopholes they can find and do what they can to make more money for themselves, at the expense of everyone else. Morality rarely enters into the equation and when it does, itís because the government and the people forced them to.

Though again, the villains in all this arenít the desperately poor immigrants. Theyíre just trying to pay the bills and make a living, while working for people who see them as little more than arms and legs to carry out tasks for them. Blame the corporate a-holes who are trying to dodge their responsibilities and are using and abusing the less fortunate to benefit them.

Itís the classic age-old dodge in this country. Itís perhaps a bit overused, but the parable often circulated online, is pretty accurate:

You have six cookies. The Corporations/Corporate-Owned government take five of them, then point at [insert whatever ethnic scapegoat you like] and say, ďHey that guyís after your cookie!Ē then make a run for it.
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  #32  
Old 15 January 2018, 02:24 AM
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Originally Posted by kitap View Post
I worked at a call center for about 2 years. I dreaded calls from the Deep South as I had a very very hard time understanding them.
Thinking about it, the Indian guy I had a very hard time understanding last week was calling me from Texas. I wonder if he had picked up a Texan accent on top of his Indian one.
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  #33  
Old 15 January 2018, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by UrbanLegends101 View Post
At my last employment location outside the United States, I had a purchasing agent whom I thought had excellent English skills, although granted, Arabic was his first language, so he had a little accent.

He was talking with a vendor in South Carolina who spoke Su'thern and I had to translate between the two. Growing in Gawja, Su'thern is my second langauge.
This kid was either in Mississippi or Alabama. In general Southern calls were favorites because the kids tended to be very polite, but the calls from the Deep South could be an exercise in guessing and hoping you guessed right.
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  #34  
Old 15 January 2018, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
To go with your second paragraph, so many of the immigrants coming in from Mexico and Central America, are people fleeing the Narco Wars. I think of it this way: If your neighbor was fleeing a serial killer and ducked inside your house via an unlocked back door to save themselves, would you still bust them for breaking and entering?
Playing devil's advocate here, their response would be along the lines of "I would if he were still in my house 3 weeks later." (to which my mind, straining to extend the metaphor would include "cleaning my house for $2 / hr so that I can fire my maid")

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Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
ETA: Also, it is permissible to eat anything haram if necessary (for example, to prevent starvation).
Yeah, but I think the sheikh would still object to you eating his harem.
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  #35  
Old 15 January 2018, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
IANAI, but AIUI, halal is more about doing your best to eat and drink according the dietary laws, not about accidental breakings of the law:



https://www.al-islam.org/a-code-of-p...ating-drinking


ETA: Also, it is permissible to eat anything haram if necessary (for example, to prevent starvation). In my quite limited understanding, the Islamic dietary laws are, "you shouldn't eat these things, but don't be an idiot about it".
Jewish dietary observance is somewhat similar.

For someone who keeps kosher observance, the requirement can be lifted for maintenance of body. That is, without getting into a long discussion, situational.

One example might be an airline flight where a kosher meal wasn't loaded on the aircraft and only a little of the non-kosher meal set is acceptable - prepackaged items. That situation would not normally be a reason not to keep kosher, as the flight is eventually going to land. (Yea, I know, a 16 hour flight with no food is a bummer, but fasting on Yom Kippur is usually a 25 hour affair.)

On the other hand, if the kosher observant Jew is going to be somewhere where the choice is to either eat non-kosher food or die, the sages have generally ruled sanctity of life is paramount.
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  #36  
Old 15 January 2018, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by UrbanLegends101 View Post
One example might be an airline flight where a kosher meal wasn't loaded on the aircraft and only a little of the non-kosher meal set is acceptable - prepackaged items. That situation would not normally be a reason not to keep kosher, as the flight is eventually going to land.
As I understand it, however, it would still be acceptable to eat the non-kosher meal if a medical condition made fasting dangerous.

As you say: situational.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Winston O'Boogie View Post
Playing devil's advocate here, their response would be along the lines of "I would if he were still in my house 3 weeks later."
What if the serial killer were still out there? and the person taking refuge wasn't legally allowed to take refuge anywhere not controlled by the serial killer?
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  #37  
Old 15 January 2018, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
As I understand it, however, it would still be acceptable to eat the non-kosher meal if a medical condition made fasting dangerous.

As you say: situational.

Agreed. Had not considered medical condition.

I suppose the order of consumption then would be to eat what could be kosher before eating something which can never be kosher.
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  #38  
Old 16 January 2018, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Winston O'Boogie View Post
Playing devil's advocate here, their response would be along the lines of "I would if he were still in my house 3 weeks later."
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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
What if the serial killer were still out there? and the person taking refuge wasn't legally allowed to take refuge anywhere not controlled by the serial killer?
Both good points, though I freely admit in my original post that my house metaphor, was somewhat inaccurate to begin with. A house is a far different thing from a country. A house is a good deal smaller and is usually controlled by the owner/landlord. A country is much bigger and it belongs to everyone, no matter how much Donald Trump believes that itís all his.
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  #39  
Old 16 January 2018, 01:14 AM
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Maybe it's because I grew up in Quebec but I'm not going to beat myself up over not being able to understand someone who speaks to me in heavily accented English. I try my best and that's as much as I can do!
When I'm tired or ill my NE English accent is much more noticeable. Sometimes people I've known for over 15 years have difficulty understanding me. Especially when I use slang.
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  #40  
Old 16 January 2018, 02:40 AM
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Both good points, though I freely admit in my original post that my house metaphor, was somewhat inaccurate to begin with. A house is a far different thing from a country. A house is a good deal smaller and is usually controlled by the owner/landlord. A country is much bigger and it belongs to everyone, no matter how much Donald Trump believes that itís all his.
True. I am sharing the country, like it or not, with a whole lot of people. (For the most part I'm in favor of this, though there are exceptions. They're by individual behavior, though, not by group membership.) I have, and should have, very little choice in the matter. However, I have, and should have, a great deal of choice in who I share my kitchen, living room, and bedroom with.
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