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Old 11 April 2018, 02:45 PM
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Sue Sue is offline
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Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
St. Alia, the Cosby Show ran from 1984-1992, according to IMDB.

I Spy was a 60s drama starring Cosby and Robert Culp as spies who traveled the world. Their cover was that Culp was a tennis player and Cosby was his trainer. But Cosby's character was also a Rhodes Scholar and a very accomplished man, which was groundbreaking for a black character on American TV at the time.
I had a book, I think one of those Whitman hardcovers, which was based on I Spy and now that I think about it it was probably one of the few, if not the only book I had at the time that was aimed at a child/teen market that had a black man as a positive main character - and actually featured on the cover.

Re: differing reactions to such crimes, in Cosby's case, I think some of it is that he was so beloved. I don't think anybody had that kind of investment in Roman Polanski.
That's true and Polanski got a big pass from a lot of people because of his childhood and because, of course, losing his wife the way he did.
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Old 11 April 2018, 06:02 PM
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Dr. Winston O'Boogie Dr. Winston O'Boogie is offline
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Originally Posted by musicgeek View Post
Dr. Winston O'Boogie, I'm curious as to what makes you think Wagner has "fallen out of favor." The Met just performed Parsifal at the start of their 2018 season, Chicago Symphony has Wagner programmed for May, Boston Symphony just finished a 3-day run of an all-Wagner program, Cleveland Symphony has a Tristan und Isolde program coming up in two weeks.... in Europe, the Royal Opera House (London) will open its 2018-2019 season with the complete Ring cycle, the Bayreuth Festival is still going strong, a new production of Lohengrin will be in Marseille in May... I think that most scholarly discussion of Wagner now includes criticisms of his views, but his music is still regularly performed by major opera houses and orchestras.
Well, with your name, you may have a better feel for the pulse of the musical community....

Let's say that I've heard (I know, a phrase that's practically a sin on the ULMB) of people considering then dropping the use of Wagner because of his non-musical side. You had examples, but how much more would his works be performed if his beliefs were different?
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Old 11 April 2018, 06:16 PM
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E. Q. Taft E. Q. Taft is offline
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Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
I Spy was a 60s drama starring Cosby and Robert Culp as spies who traveled the world. Their cover was that Culp was a tennis player and Cosby was his trainer. But Cosby's character was also a Rhodes Scholar and a very accomplished man, which was groundbreaking for a black character on American TV at the time.
While I don't think I ever saw I Spy, I do recall the episode of Get Smart! that parodied it, with Maxwell Smart going undercover as a ping-pong champion and Nipsey Russell playing the Cosby part. (Robert Culp was cool enough to appear in a cameo as a drunken waiter...)
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Old 11 April 2018, 06:17 PM
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crocoduck_hunter crocoduck_hunter is offline
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Originally Posted by St. Alia View Post
I've read your comment several times over a couple days and I'm still trying to figure out which era is which without having to look it all up.

I also grew up in the 80's, but I think you're younger than me based on lurking here for years.
Probably not by much unless the age listed in your profile hasn't been updated in a long time.

I don't really know what I Spy is but I think it's from before I was born? Or at least before I was watching TV shows.
The Cosby Show was something I grew up watching throughout childhood into my teens I think and then I watched A Different World. Did the Cosby Show end far earlier than I recall and I just watched reruns or something?
No, I just misremembered the dates of when the show ran. I grew up out in the country and watching TV was not something the family did at night.
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Old 12 April 2018, 12:33 AM
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Which reminds me - OJ Simpson didn't have (as far as I can remember) a TV show but he was in some pretty high profile movies. Do those movies ever get shown on TV anymore I wonder.
He did star in a long-running series of commercials for Hertz Rent-A-Car, which is what I primarily remember him from(although I knew he was a football player).
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Old 12 April 2018, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
I think one thing is people have to stop putting old art on a pedestal, no matter how "good" it's supposed to be. I love the Gioconda as much as the next guy steeped in this Eurocentric cesspool and I don't expect the Louvre to take it out of its special little place but, really, let's move on. Maybe what we're looking for doesn't exist yet. I'm all for fully funded art history classes to the max but a lot of this "good art" talk is just nostalgia. (Also, if what you talk about in art history is what's "good" or not, fercryinoutloud get a new teacher or textbook or something. That's so f-ing irrelevant.) I mean, are we really losing anything by putting I Spy in film and TV class rather than the reruns hour? Really? Put something new there.
This comment reminded me of a something I stumbled onto on Pinterest. I know, Pinterest hardly qualifies as a scholarly source, but often a brief visual speaks better than a paragraph-long screed, so here it is.

I actually think that it is a smart strategy of Warner Brothers, not trying to ignore or sugarcoat their problematic art, but acknowledging it for what it is.

Though to go along with the last few lines of ganzfeld’s comment, at the same time, the warning label depicted in the link for said cartoons, is probably only found on the DVDs of these cartoons, which are probably geared less towards a wide audience and more for scholars and enthusiasts fascinated with the history of Warner Brothers’ cartoons. These cartoons aren’t likely still shown in reruns on whatever channel.

Last edited by Mouse; 12 April 2018 at 08:09 PM. Reason: Added a hyphen
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Old 13 April 2018, 12:18 AM
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ganzfeld ganzfeld is offline
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I dunno. It's a decent thing to put before an outdated cartoon. I don't think it comes close to addressing the issues. Of course, that's not it's purpose but I think people are extremely likely to say "well, we've taken care of that so That's all Folks" and just enjoy the same racist jingoistic sexist crap without giving it another thought.

It's a failure of the education system, IMO. Not that I think enough people care enough to fix it. It's a lot easier to talk about George Washington Carver and Susan B Anthony and say well we've just about covered that than to say, Why were ordinary people so extremely awful to each other for so long, what are they doing that still is, how was this organized into institutions that made this into a matter of policy and what exists of them today, what new ones are being instituted ... etc.
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Old 14 April 2018, 04:55 AM
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You have a point, ganz. Too often the approach to teaching history in this country is the teacher hands the students bundles of tree branches. Since the students never see the whole tree, never mind the forest, it makes it darn near impossible to understand how all the various memes that inform a culture and influence things for better and for worst.

It would also be interesting to introduce such psychological concepts as Cognitive Dissonance to help better understand how Thomas Jefferson could preach life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, while denying it to the slaves he owned. By all accounts, even Jefferson recognized the divide between his beliefs and his slave-owning. He struggled with the issue for all his life, but never resolved it and it might be interesting to try to look through his eyes and figure out why he may have chosen not to.
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