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  #21  
Old 27 February 2007, 12:40 AM
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IIRC, Jesus was buried in the tomb of Joseph of Aramathea, not a family gravesite. Don't have time to look it up now, but I will later.
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  #22  
Old 27 February 2007, 02:17 AM
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Paula Zahn had a segment about this. One of her guests was William Donohue, quite seriously suggesting that this was all a part of some grand anti-Christian conspiracy because these horrible anti-Christian stories are always announced during Lent.
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  #23  
Old 27 February 2007, 02:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingDavid8 View Post
fictional characters don't get buried.
You have now made it my personal goal to get a fictional character buried. Upon my death (may it be many untold years from now), you can expect to see a Headstone with Gandalf Stormcrow upon it...

Then that'll teach ya
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  #24  
Old 27 February 2007, 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Rixel View Post
You have now made it my personal goal to get a fictional character buried. Upon my death (may it be many untold years from now), you can expect to see a Headstone with Gandalf Stormcrow upon it...

Then that'll teach ya
Start a fund and I'll personally contribute money to it. (Seriously!)
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  #25  
Old 27 February 2007, 01:22 PM
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Most Christians believe Jesus' body spent three days at the site of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem's Old City. The burial site identified in Cameron's documentary is in a southern Jerusalem neighborhood nowhere near the church.
What does that have to do with it? In the Bible Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, then the chief priests planned to kill Lazarus as well as Christ (John 12:9-11 - great scene in The Last Temptation of Christ). Is someone suggesting that if Christ rose from the dead he couldn't/wouldn't die again? Maybe the whole family was slaughtered & that's why they're buried together.
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  #26  
Old 27 February 2007, 01:51 PM
Nick Theodorakis Nick Theodorakis is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Logoboros View Post
..."Why, it's a the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, of course!" would almost certainly be Catholic or Orthodox.
...
--Logoboros
Both, actually, plus the Armenians thrown in for good measure.

Nick
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  #27  
Old 27 February 2007, 02:35 PM
Ryda Wong, EBfCo. Ryda Wong, EBfCo. is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Cactus Wren View Post
Paula Zahn had a segment about this. One of her guests was William Donohue,

Donohue has become, quite quickly, the person I love to despise the most. Really, he's made a meteoric rise in the ranks of those I wouldn't mourn were they eaten by wild boars.



That being said, I'm not sure we have enough real data to make any statment on if this jesus was the jesus to which the bible refers.

DNA? From whom? Linda Fiorentino?
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  #28  
Old 27 February 2007, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingDavid8 View Post
...fictional characters don't get buried.
David
Huh? How about John Henry, the Steel-Drivin' Man?

"They took John Henry to the graveyard
And they buried him in the sand"

Carrie Saunders comes to mind, in the Stephen King novel (though the graveyard scene may only be in the movie).

D.D. Harriman, in Heinlein's "Requiem".

These are just off the top of my head, I'm sure there are many others.

Dog (Grant. And his wife, Virginia) Friendly
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  #29  
Old 27 February 2007, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by hoitoider View Post
What does that have to do with it? In the Bible Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, then the chief priests planned to kill Lazarus as well as Christ (John 12:9-11 - great scene in The Last Temptation of Christ). Is someone suggesting that if Christ rose from the dead he couldn't/wouldn't die again? Maybe the whole family was slaughtered & that's why they're buried together.

In that case, Jesus wouldn't be resurrected, he'd be resuscitated. Resurrection connotes having a glorified body (thus allowing one to walk through walls, appear and disappear at will, and generally not be extrinsically conditioned by time and space.)
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  #30  
Old 27 February 2007, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Admiraldinty View Post
In that case, Jesus wouldn't be resurrected, he'd be resuscitated. Resurrection connotes having a glorified body (thus allowing one to walk through walls, appear and disappear at will, and generally not be extrinsically conditioned by time and space.)
Are you certain? I thought that "resurrected" only necessarily implied "restored to life from death." You are describing something more akin to apotheosis, or transcendence.

You may be right in a "theological jargon," but not in ordinary English. (As a comparison, I'm thinking of the term "degenerative" in medical jargon, or "suspect group" in legal jargon, both of which mean almost the opposite of what they do in English!)

Silas
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  #31  
Old 27 February 2007, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silas Sparkhammer View Post
Are you certain? I thought that "resurrected" only necessarily implied "restored to life from death." You are describing something more akin to apotheosis, or transcendence.

You may be right in a "theological jargon," but not in ordinary English. (As a comparison, I'm thinking of the term "degenerative" in medical jargon, or "suspect group" in legal jargon, both of which mean almost the opposite of what they do in English!)

Silas
With regard to Lazarus and the other people who had risen from the dead I belive the general RC doctrine (which seems to be the goto source with regard to these mystical/theological questions) is that their resurection was simply a physical resurection, i.e. that they returned to life with no particular alterations in the physical being. Whether or not they died later, or were effectivly immortal the Church makes no official statement on.

With Regard to Jesus however, he resurected, meaning his physical body returned to life, while at the same time he was tranfigured, in that his physical body became as it is described at the tranfiguration. This is what is refered to in the Catholic Church as the resurection of the body. In the final judgement when the dead rise, it is not just their spirits that rise, but their bodies where are then made into "perfect" vessels for their spirit.

It is presumed that all people who were assumed into heaven as Jesus was have these transfigured bodies, as I do not belive there is doctrine on Lazarus being assumed into heaven there is no reason to presume he was transfigured.

Boy that looks really sillywhen you actually write it out like that.
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  #32  
Old 27 February 2007, 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silas Sparkhammer View Post
Are you certain? I thought that "resurrected" only necessarily implied "restored to life from death." You are describing something more akin to apotheosis, or transcendence.
Not apotheosis, but just theosis (Latin: deificatio).

Last edited by jason13; 27 February 2007 at 11:40 PM. Reason: Forgot a slash
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  #33  
Old 28 February 2007, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by jason13 View Post
Not apotheosis, but just theosis (Latin: deificatio).
What is the exact difference? The two words appear to have very similar definitions.

(Does belief come into it? Must one believe in Jesus as divine to use one word over the other? Contrariwise, is the use of one word over the other an offense to a believer?)

In any case, it still seems to me that "resurrection" and "transfiguration" are different ideas. The bodily resurrection of the mortal souls to be judged does not seem to entail bodies which are able to walk through walls, or appear and disappear at will, as mentioned by Admiraldinty.

So, my first question remains: is this a fine point of theological terminology, of which we lay speakers of English might not be aware?

Silas
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  #34  
Old 28 February 2007, 01:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silas Sparkhammer View Post
What is the exact difference? The two words appear to have very similar definitions.

(Does belief come into it? Must one believe in Jesus as divine to use one word over the other? Contrariwise, is the use of one word over the other an offense to a believer?)

In any case, it still seems to me that "resurrection" and "transfiguration" are different ideas. The bodily resurrection of the mortal souls to be judged does not seem to entail bodies which are able to walk through walls, or appear and disappear at will, as mentioned by Admiraldinty.

So, my first question remains: is this a fine point of theological terminology, of which we lay speakers of English might not be aware?

Silas
It probably is just a point of theological terminology. However, I've been drinking the Kool-Aid for so long I don't even realize it anymore. But to be fair, I did say "connote" and not "denote."

There may be a distinction in the Greek. "Anastaseos" is Greek for Resurrection which I'm not aware of. In Latin it's "resurrectio", which means a "rising again." It comes from the prefix "re-" obviously meaning "again" and the verb "surgo, surgere, surrexi, surrectus" which means "to rise, to grow, to lift." Note that rising from the death is not specified.

But to go back to your earlier point, Catholics (and probably other Christians) do believe that at the Resurrection of the dead, the redeemed will have glorified bodies (similar to that of Christ after the Resurrection.) There's a whole discussion of it in Thomas's Summa Theologiae, particularly questions 82, 83, 84, and 85 of the Supplementum tertiae partis. The following questions also make for good reading.
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  #35  
Old 28 February 2007, 02:22 AM
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Theosis is the most difficult part of Christian doctrine to explain.

Apotheosis goes beyond theosis in that the human nature transforms into a divine one while in theosis or "partakers of the divine nature" (II Peter 1:14) while "the infinite distance between Creator and created remains" (Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, pages 251 and 256 -- Ott goes into a little detail on theosis -- the CCC only touches on theosis for a moment at #460).

The bodies of those Christians who have undergone theosis will be transfigured and, according to the Scholastics, will be have the properties of:
  • incapability of suffering (impassibilitas)
  • subtility (subtilitas), this is where the the walking through walls comes in
  • agility (agilitas), an example of which is appearing and disappearing at will
  • clarity (claritas), "free from everything deformed and being filled with beauty and radience" (Ott, pg 491-492)

(Interestingly, I just found the answer to the question of what people's bodies will be like after the General Resurrection: "in the greatest possible natural perfection", with all body parts and in perfect shape.)

Last edited by jason13; 28 February 2007 at 02:26 AM. Reason: Cut out leftovers from previous version
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  #36  
Old 28 February 2007, 03:47 AM
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well, I've got to say, I am severely disappointed! With James Cameron in charge, I thought this new documentary was going to use DNA evidence to show how Jesus was actually a young boyishly cute sketch artist who managed to persuade kate winslett to take her top off!
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  #37  
Old 28 February 2007, 04:04 AM
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Originally Posted by callee View Post
well, I've got to say, I am severely disappointed! With James Cameron in charge, I thought this new documentary was going to use DNA evidence to show how Jesus was actually a young boyishly cute sketch artist who managed to persuade kate winslett to take her top off!
Well, James Cameron and Simcha Jacobovici did do Exodus Decoded, which was a "serious" documentary (and quite interesting).
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  #38  
Old 28 February 2007, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by KingDavid8 View Post
There aren't many historians who believe that the crucifixion itself never happened, except for that small (and IMO very illogical) minority who believe Jesus was a fictional character, which, if true, would mean that the grave site ain't His, since fictional characters don't get buried.
I have asked previously, and am still waiting, for ANY sort of proof that the biblical Jesus even existed, regardless of how he was killed. There is absolutly no contemporary proof whatsoever.
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  #39  
Old 28 February 2007, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
I have asked previously, and am still waiting, for ANY sort of proof that the biblical Jesus even existed, regardless of how he was killed. There is absolutly no contemporary proof whatsoever.
Exactly without evidence that the Biblical Jesus actually existed, the itentity of the person in that tomb isnt relivent.

First we must be extablished that teh Biblical Jesus actually walked the earth. THen determine the rest. Since we can't even say if he existed, its kinda a moot point.
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  #40  
Old 28 February 2007, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Amigone201 View Post
Maybe they should have Geraldo open it.
That was the first thing I thought of - the Capone special!
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