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  #21  
Old 24 February 2007, 01:52 AM
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I've always been a bit bothered by the idea that praying for something hard enough will invoke change.. Particularly when its from people who also believe that "God has a plan".

Basically its weird for two reasons, if God has a plan why would he change it just cause you asked him really nicely? That makes no sense.. And if God dosn't have a plan why would he force you to beg him for help instead of just giving it? Presuambly this lady is a good Christian so why make her beg? Why not just help her out?


As for the story, I find it silly, I'm sure its an error in the x-ray, unless we are to believe that God can be x-rayed.. I would also stop seeing a doctor who explained an abbarancy in an x-ray as divine presense, to know he would write something off so easily would worry me.

As for why she went to an HENT vs. somebody else.. If the preliminary testing only called for an X-Ray anybody could take it if they were qualified to do so (though clearly a mistake was made here), she wouldn't have to go to a cancer specialist right off, they could take the X-ray where convinient (and no doubt cheaper) and then if anything unusual showed up they could seek a specialist.

I always find the slow witted people who need to see "proof" of their religion funny, and sad.. Though this concept came to a head a while ago where on a news program they were talking about some stain that looked like the Virgin Mary.. All these people from all over were talking to the camera about how they were so moved, and how this was a sign from god, this, that and the other.. Then they interviewed a couple of nuns who said that while it was nice to see so many people happy they were pretty sure it was just a stain.. I think that summed it up pretty much perfectly

Still, if it makes this lady feel all gooy inside to think that God healed her (and that it left a mark on an x-ray) then hey, good for her, at least she's not out there trying to rob me of my freedoms (well she may be, but based on this story she isn't) like so many others.

-MB
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  #22  
Old 24 February 2007, 04:15 AM
PrometheusX303
 
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Originally Posted by Horse Chestnut View Post
Why are God's fingers chopped off?
Matthew 5:30
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  #23  
Old 24 February 2007, 11:19 AM
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Why are God's fingers chopped off?
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Originally Posted by PrometheusX303 View Post
Matthew 5:30
Yeah, well that's what you get for groping the faithful.
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  #24  
Old 26 February 2007, 11:52 AM
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... He can reach into our bodies and Heal it. [sic!]
Does this mean that god is a Philippino faith healer?
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  #25  
Old 26 February 2007, 01:35 PM
Aud 1 Aud 1 is offline
 
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This remind me of a cartoon at home on my bulletin board. A doctor is showin a x-ray to a patient. The caption reads "You had a broken rib but we fixed it with Photoshop."
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  #26  
Old 26 February 2007, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Mickey Blue View Post
I've always been a bit bothered by the idea that praying for something hard enough will invoke change.. Particularly when its from people who also believe that "God has a plan".
A guy who I volunteer with at the soup kitchen is like this. He's unusually religious for the UK, by which I mean that in almost every sentence he mentions God or Jesus, unprompted and apparently in the assumption that I share his beliefs.

A couple of weeks ago, his daughter went in for an operation; apparently something serious, and the doctor had told them it was risky and there was a good chance the operation wasn't successful. He was telling me how hopeless it was, but he was feeling at peace about it because "there were a lot of people praying for her" and that he thought God would sort it out. The next time I saw him, he mentioned his daughter and I asked how the operation had gone, and apparently it went pretty well. But he seemed a little upset with the surgeon. After the operation, the surgeon had told them that the prognosis was better than they'd feared. Instead of being thankful to the surgeon, he complained that the surgeon couldn't see that God had fixed things for his daughter...!

Later on, he told me a story about a friend of his preacher friend in Zimbabwe whose hand had been crushed in an accident; the local doctors supposedly told them it was hopeless and that he might need his hand amputated. He went off to the capital to see other doctors; meanwhile all the church prayed for him. When he got to the hospital in Harare, they X-rayed him and "there wasn't a bone broken in his hand". Again, he told me this in the absolute belief that God had fixed the guy's crushed hand because enough people had prayed for it.

Usually I can just say "Mmm" or "That's good, I'm glad your daughter is doing well" or something non-committal, and am happy enough to let him believe whatever he wants, but those two stories annoyed me more than some. Also he seems to have noticed that I'm not responding to his stories with "Hallelujah, praise Jesus!" and is getting slightly more pointed about them. (He'd already mentioned fundraising activities for this mission in Zimbabwe to teach children, and was probably hoping I'd volunteer a donation. I already make a monthy donation to Save the Children and Oxfam, both of which cover that type of thing, so I don't want to directly fund a church whose position I have no idea of.) I'm a bit worried that he might directly challenge me about it and I'm not sure what I'd say...

Last time something similar happened, it was a volunteer dropping hints to find out which church I went to ("Do you go to this church?" "No - I found out about the soup kitchen from a friend."; next week "Do you go to that church?" "No"... and so on until she just asked directly "Which church do you go to?" and I said "I don't" and changed the subject, and that was that. She did make one or two comments later about me not being one of them "but he's a good lad anyway...", but nothing too annoying), but she was quite direct about it and also only asked about church, rather than beliefs in general, and dropped the subject once I'd answered. If this bloke asks, he's far more likely to take it as an issue and then try to convert me. It's as if he's only just starting to realise that I might not automatically agree with everything he says...

It must be really annoying to live in a place where a significant portion of the people you meet do this every day! It's not something you usually have to deal with in the UK.
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  #27  
Old 26 February 2007, 03:27 PM
Pikey Queen
 
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Originally Posted by inkrose115 View Post
There was a time when my mom thought her kidneys were both NFBSKed up. Turns out that someone had screwed up the X-Rays. So I guess we could make money touting it as a miracle healing of kidneys?

My brother had his leg in plaster for a week until they realised that a 'shadow' on the x-ray wasn't a fracture.
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  #28  
Old 26 February 2007, 03:51 PM
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I don't know how things run there but it does seem strange that an ear nose and throat place would be X-raying for cancer.
What would make much more sense in this situation would be. She got x-rayed for a general chest complaint, this fault turned up on the plates, the doctor and the woman decided that story wasn't dramatic enough so embellished.
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  #29  
Old 26 February 2007, 03:54 PM
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I always find the slow witted people who need to see "proof" of their religion funny, and sad.. Though this concept came to a head a while ago where on a news program they were talking about some stain that looked like the Virgin Mary.. All these people from all over were talking to the camera about how they were so moved, and how this was a sign from god, this, that and the other.. Then they interviewed a couple of nuns who said that while it was nice to see so many people happy they were pretty sure it was just a stain.. I think that summed it up pretty much perfectly
Care to join me in the church of Ixfanguano, the Everchanging? It is an amorphous god, so you can claim EVERY stain as his image. And instead of wine or holy water we use pudding and jelly.
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  #30  
Old 26 February 2007, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by lazerus the duck View Post
I don't know how things run there but it does seem strange that an ear nose and throat place would be X-raying for cancer.
Mickey Blue said, in response to my similar point

Quote:
As for why she went to an HENT vs. somebody else.. If the preliminary testing only called for an X-Ray anybody could take it if they were qualified to do so
But would they be fully qualified to interpret the results of the X-ray? A dermatologist would probably be qualified to detect abnormal heart rhythms, but if I'd had a previous history of heart problems then I would probably go to a cardiologist if I suspected another heart problem.
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  #31  
Old 01 March 2007, 06:03 PM
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I've got a runny nostril. If I pray really, really hard, will said nostril be touched by His holy finger?
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  #32  
Old 01 March 2007, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Blatherskite View Post
I've got a runny nostril. If I pray really, really hard, will said nostril be touched by His holy finger?


You've got me worried now. I've got an itchy bum at the moment.
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  #33  
Old 07 March 2007, 09:44 PM
BluesScale BluesScale is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Blatherskite View Post
I've got a runny nostril. If I pray really, really hard, will said nostril be touched by His holy finger?
Possibly by his noodly appendage...
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  #34  
Old 08 March 2007, 12:35 AM
nanbanan nanbanan is offline
 
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I not only wondered about the ENT but, as a breast cancer survivor myself (26 years), I would have wanted a Mammogram first, not an X-ray.
(I will admit the video was not good on my computer so might have missed info)
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  #35  
Old 08 March 2007, 08:53 AM
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Mickey Blue Mickey Blue is offline
 
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Care to join me in the church of Ixfanguano, the Everchanging? It is an amorphous god, so you can claim EVERY stain as his image. And instead of wine or holy water we use pudding and jelly.
I could never take part in any organization that did not allow wine.

Quote:
But would they be fully qualified to interpret the results of the X-ray? A dermatologist would probably be qualified to detect abnormal heart rhythms, but if I'd had a previous history of heart problems then I would probably go to a cardiologist if I suspected another heart problem.
I have no idea what this doctor was or wasn't qualified to do.. If he thinks this is the hand of god then I'd say he's not even qualified to practice medicine, but thats a whole seperate issue.

Depending on where you are at getting an X-Ray at a hospital can be costly and time consuming, preliminary x-rays can be taken outside of the hospital and sent (either through computers or traditionally through the mail) to whoever her doctor is if specialized interpretation is necessary..

Sort of like, to go with the cardiology example, a doctor could do a 12-Lead on a patient then send it to a cardiologist for interpretation, if there was some question the patient could be called in.. Now whether the doctor is qualified to perform a 12-Lead, or if this doctor was qualified to perform an X-Ray, is a whole seperate issue, but its not all togather unusual for it to happen.. I'd think it would be even more common in areas with universal healthcare to help streamline things more.

-MB
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  #36  
Old 08 March 2007, 01:54 PM
Broken Sword Broken Sword is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Mickey Blue View Post
I've always been a bit bothered by the idea that praying for something hard enough will invoke change.. Particularly when its from people who also believe that "God has a plan".

Basically its weird for two reasons, if God has a plan why would he change it just cause you asked him really nicely? That makes no sense.. And if God dosn't have a plan why would he force you to beg him for help instead of just giving it? Presuambly this lady is a good Christian so why make her beg? Why not just help her out?
I very much doubt that my theology is very similar to this lady's, but I can think of possible reasons it would happen this way. To understand it you have to understand that physical comforts are not the #1 most important thing in God's eyes or in the eyes of Christians who follow Him - far more important than physical distress or even bodily death is your eternal relationship with Him.

So in that view, the healing could always have been a part of God's plan. But He did it this way to help her learn that she need not be afraid in life, to help her really be reassured that He is taking care of her, and to reinforce her view that the relationship with Him is what is really important in any circumstance.

Or, you could believe that his plans are contingent on what we choose to do. Sort of like a teacher that says, "If they all pass the test we'll move on, but if they fail the test than I'll have to work on this for a little while longer." The teacher is still in control and the teacher's plan is always followed, but the plan meets the needs of the students where they are at. If you believe that God gives humans free will, then His plan could go one way or the other, based on what is best for us relative to the choices we make.

If you believe that God is outside of time and space (as I do), then you can still believe that the previous option is possible, just that God sets it up that way in space-time because He sees all our decisions at once and acts accordingly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey Blue View Post
As for the story, I find it silly, I'm sure its an error in the x-ray, unless we are to believe that God can be x-rayed.
I don't feel the story is contingent on that belief at all. It's just the way God chose to manifest His presence in that instant - it no more means that He has a hand or can be x-rayed than hearning Him speak would mean that He has vocal cords.


I'm not saying that I believe that this was God acting - I'm just saying that I believe that it's possible that God could act in this way. As far as this particular story goes I tend to withhold judgement because it doesn't affect my life much one way or the other.
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  #37  
Old 15 March 2007, 04:17 AM
HoneyBunchingOats
 
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Originally Posted by Horse Chestnut View Post
Why are God's fingers chopped off?
Because the lungs are full of air which is not as radio opaque as the heart and diaphragm. The "hand" only appears over radiopaque areas.

That X-ray tech was pretty defensive. You think?

If this woman had faith then she had hope. If she had hope she wasn't as stressed and her immune system was stronger.

If this woman was tricked then had more hope then the trick was a cure. If the trick was revealed and the patient lost her faith then she would be more stressed and have a weaker immune response.

I'm basing this hypothosis on psychology/neurology and immunology; not metaphysics.

I'm a believer that doesn't want proff because that proof will become a false idol. But if it works to heal, I'll keep my comments to myself.
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