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  #21  
Old 24 September 2007, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Canuckistan View Post
If video games were requested, should they be given out, too?
Why not, if there is someone willing to donate them?

ETA: Never mind... already answered and I don;t know why it took so long to refresh.

Wonko
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  #22  
Old 24 September 2007, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by AnglRdr View Post
I don't see what the big deal is with sending Bibles.

After, of course, food, water, and shelter were provided. Thomas Nelson could have, say, sent a day's worth of profit, rather than Bibles (which were probably remainders, anyway, considering how many they publish each year).
I agree with this.

But two years on, a lot of New Orleans still needs much more than Bibles. When homes still need to be rebuilt, sending a book seems to be a misplaced priority to me.
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  #23  
Old 24 September 2007, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Canuckistan View Post
It isn't. I just don't think it's particularly useful.
sure, but could that perhaps be because you don't see bible reading itself as a particularly useful activity?

In times of crisis people should do what they can.

doctors can donate medical service.

social workers can donate counselling.

construction workers can donate shelter repair and construction.

And bible publishers can donate bibles.

As I already noted above, sure they could donate some profit as well, and while I don't know for sure I'd be surprised - given the post-katrina trend for companies to do so - if Nelson did not also do just that. But all the same, this was something that a lot of victims wanted and Nelson had the ability to do. I commend them for doing the thingthey could do, and I think it's a particularly secular form of cynicism that can find room to fault it.
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  #24  
Old 24 September 2007, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuckistan View Post
I agree with this.

But two years on, a lot of New Orleans still needs much more than Bibles. When homes still need to be rebuilt, sending a book seems to be a misplaced priority to me.
Sending a book to you, sure. Sending that particular book to any of the millions of people in this world that derive a great deal of comfort from it and it's words, a whole different ball game.

If they have a warehouse full of stuff to send to New Orleans and not enough trucks, I can't see why they should send a shipment of bibles over food, water or construction supplys. But if they have a truck full of bibles and they can either send it to New Orleans or a warehouse in some other state, why not send it?
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  #25  
Old 24 September 2007, 09:20 PM
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I think it is wrong to characterize the donation of Bibles as "the thing they could do" when it comes to Nelson. They're a massive company, and they have the ability to do a whole lot more than donate Bibles.

Bibles are useful; they are not vital.
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  #26  
Old 24 September 2007, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by callee View Post
sure, but could that perhaps be because you don't see bible reading itself as a particularly useful activity?
When I have no home, nothing to eat and nothing to drink -- you're right, for me, reading the Bible isn't particularly useful.

But I can agree with donating the Bibles after necessities are met, as per AnglRdr's post.

[hijack]Although I have an issue with the whole concept of holy texts for sale. I mean, if it's meant to save my soul, it's rather galling to charge me for it, no?[/hijack]
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  #27  
Old 24 September 2007, 09:31 PM
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As the original poster, I should have pointed out that I heard this comment within days of the disaster, not weeks later. I have no objection to any person or company donating bibles, ( or crime fiction or SciFi or whatever) but it was the timing that I found offensive. Space was being taken up which could have been used for more urgent supplies.
I think most of you have hit it right when you say it was a case of misguided priorities.
Any word on if Bush actually said the words. Can this be confirmed.
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  #28  
Old 24 September 2007, 09:33 PM
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Certainly they could have done more, but does that give us the room to criticize them for doing less than we think they should have done? They did what they did, and I haven't the smallest doubt that their gesture was appreciated, and continues to be.

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Originally Posted by Canuckistan View Post
But I can agree with donating the Bibles after necessities are met, as per AnglRdr's post.
Why does it have to wait for after, though? Like someone said, it isn't as though someone held off on the insulin shipment to make sure the bibles got through first.

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Originally Posted by Canuckistan View Post
[hijack]Although I have an issue with the whole concept of holy texts for sale. I mean, if it's meant to save my soul, it's rather galling to charge me for it, no?[/hijack]
Free bibles are available for the asking from any number of sources, including most local churches. These publishers, however, are not non-profit organizations; they're in the business of supplying a market willing to pay for their product. Why should that be galling? I've never had an employee of Nelson come to my house and ask whether I've found Jesus.

Wonko
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  #29  
Old 24 September 2007, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by WonkoTheSane View Post
Why does it have to wait for after, though? Like someone said, it isn't as though someone held off on the insulin shipment to make sure the bibles got through first.
Why after? Because you can live without the Bible. You can't live without food, water, and shelter.

Quote:
These publishers, however, are not non-profit organizations; they're in the business of supplying a market willing to pay for their product. Why should that be galling?
Nevertheless, something about people the house of God into a marketplace comes to mind here. Except, in this case, they're marketing the Word of God. If they're really that concerned about saving people's souls, why make a profit off it?

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I've never had an employee of Nelson come to my house and ask whether I've found Jesus.
So?
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  #30  
Old 24 September 2007, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Canuckistan View Post
Why after? Because you can live without the Bible. You can't live without food, water, and shelter.
I don't understand why you think this needs to be an either/or. Either food&shelter, or bibles? Someone loses their house, they want a new house and spiritual comfort. The construction company offers to build them a new house, Nelson offers them a new bible. sounds like a good plan to me, but you would have nelson hold off till the house is all done? That makes no sense to me. Why can't someone get both a bible and a house at the same time?

How long should nelson have waited? Should they wait till every single house is rebuilt? Till homelessness is completely eliminated from new orleans? Till you say its ok?

It's a big world with a lot of different people, canuck, and a lot of different people can do a lot of different good things all at the same time. I see no need, save for raw antagonism towards religion, to begrudge one particular set of do-gooders.
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  #31  
Old 24 September 2007, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by callee View Post
I don't understand why you think this needs to be an either/or. Either food&shelter, or bibles? Someone loses their house, they want a new house and spiritual comfort. The construction company offers to build them a new house, Nelson offers them a new bible. sounds like a good plan to me, but you would have nelson hold off till the house is all done? That makes no sense to me. Why can't someone get both a bible and a house at the same time?
I suspect I'm not making myself clear. My argument is that it shouldn't be the priority. Necessities do come before the Bible. Spiritual growth means little if you're dying of disease or thirst or hunger, or have nowhere to stay.
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  #32  
Old 25 September 2007, 01:18 AM
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A while back when there were stories about the SPCA and other animal organizations entering into the Katrina disaster to help animals I was met with people who criticized them. They wanted to know how these organizations/companies could waste money/resources helping animals when there were still humans who needed help.

My response was, and is, that these organizations are for animals, thats what they exist to do. I woudn't expect UNICEF or the Red Cross to use resources for that, but the SCPA and other similar organizations/companies.. Yea, thats what I'd think they'd do.

Many people, organizations and companies sent help after Katrina, they generally gave either streight cash, or some product/service (which in some ways are nicer as they cannot be misappropriated as easily).

I didn't go to Katrina, unfortunatly there was no way for me to escape my then obligations in Virginia, but had I gone I would have most likely provided some basic medical aid, now they also needed food, water, construction supplies and workers, evacuations, advanced medical aid, etc, etc. I would not have supplied any of these because its not what I'm good at. I could do many of those things true, but there are others to take care of those things.

Yes, Bibles are not vital (well I guess it depends who you ask but they are at least not a necessity to stay alive), however there were (supposidly) other groups working to provide that vital help, these organizations provided bibles to people who may have wanted/needed them in this time, they have a product that people wanted post-disaster, one that many people will argue is good at providing solice in difficult times, and they gave them out, I personally don't see why that is bad.

I get what your saying, vital stuff first, but if vital stuff was being provided by others more suited to doing so, why not give the product they have that people clearly want?


As to people who are not Christian.. Well I'd imagine that area is largely Christian, however I'm sure there are some that arent, but then nobody is stopping a company that produces other religious texts from giving them away.



Quote:
Nevertheless, something about people the house of God into a marketplace comes to mind here. Except, in this case, they're marketing the Word of God. If they're really that concerned about saving people's souls, why make a profit off it?
I don't know the company, but I'd imagine their bibles are "fancier" in some way, something people may want to give as gifts or display in their home or whatever, where as free bibles are more basic. You certainly don't have to go to them to get a bible, and they may even refer you to where you can get free ones, but if you want one that has more pizazz then thats where you go.. I'd imagine.

-MB
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  #33  
Old 25 September 2007, 01:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by callee View Post
I don't understand why you think this needs to be an either/or. Either food&shelter, or bibles? Someone loses their house, they want a new house and spiritual comfort. The construction company offers to build them a new house, Nelson offers them a new bible. sounds like a good plan to me, but you would have nelson hold off till the house is all done? That makes no sense to me. Why can't someone get both a bible and a house at the same time?

How long should nelson have waited? Should they wait till every single house is rebuilt? Till homelessness is completely eliminated from new orleans? Till you say its ok?

It's a big world with a lot of different people, canuck, and a lot of different people can do a lot of different good things all at the same time. I see no need, save for raw antagonism towards religion, to begrudge one particular set of do-gooders.
It isn't either v. or. It is a question of priorities.

What good does it do to take care of one's spiritual body if one's physical body has urgent needs?
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  #34  
Old 25 September 2007, 01:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnglRdr View Post
It isn't either v. or. It is a question of priorities.

What good does it do to take care of one's spiritual body if one's physical body has urgent needs?
They gave money and their product (which many people would argue, while not necessary for life, is extremely important in times of trouble).

What else exactly did you want them to do?

-MB
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  #35  
Old 25 September 2007, 01:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey Blue View Post
They gave money and their product (which many people would argue, while not necessary for life, is extremely important in times of trouble).

What else exactly did you want them to do?

-MB
Give more money. And then more money. And then even more money. Donate a portion of the proceeds for every bible sold. And then, when people's physical needs are met, then send bibles. This attitude:
Quote:
"First, we will donate 100,000 Bibles to the relief efforts.
is, IMO, wrong. First, take care of the physical body. *Then* send bibles.
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  #36  
Old 25 September 2007, 01:58 AM
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Quote:
Give more money. And then more money. And then even more money. Donate a portion of the proceeds for every bible sold. And then, when people's physical needs are met, then send bibles. This attitude:
So a company donating money to help people and then a product that many people want is not good enough? I guess I just don't get that attitude.

Quote:
is, IMO, wrong. First, take care of the physical body. *Then* send bibles.
In his quote he was listing off what they were going to do, not saying they were going to give bibles first and then give other stuff after that was done. It was more like "We are going to do several things, first give bibles, second give money, etc, etc".

When push comes to shove, they gave money, and they gave a product that many people wanted and, arguably, needed. How that can possible be viewed as anything less then great is beyond me, I mean what must you think of the countless people and organizations that didn't give anything?

-MB
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  #37  
Old 25 September 2007, 02:09 AM
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But some of these bibles were donated to the Astrodome in Houston. Where all of the physical needs already WERE met. And actually, the day after the disaster, there were conflicting reports about how to get donations to New Orleans. For people in Houston, meeting the needs of evacuees was a useful way to help well before we had the ability to really help IN New Orleans.

But then, I disagree with the very premise that we shoudl withhold spiritual and other non-physical assistance until everyone has food and shelter. There were people who needed mental and emotional assistance, kids who needed toys, adults who needed books including Bibles. People who were prepared to give those sorts of help in Houston may not have had the resources to give a different kind of help in a different place. But I think those kinds of health are very valuable to help refugees to feel human, an important part of healing.
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  #38  
Old 25 September 2007, 02:27 AM
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To me its like saying that there are still starving, hungry and dying people out there in the US and worldwide.. So whats the point of donating toys for tots or to the SCPA? Once the rest is taken care of we can worry about that.

-MB
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  #39  
Old 25 September 2007, 03:28 AM
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Man does not live on bread alone....but rather, from the milk of human kindness.

That said, if your brother asks you for an egg, would you give him a scorpion?

Food, water, clothing, medicine, money - all of these things are more important than bibles.

My biggest problem with this, as well as with many religious charities, is that it is indeed unethical from a religious standpoint, to attempt to convert someone when they are "down and out". In other words, the starving man gets a free meal, and a bible, and even if there is no "quid pro quo", this was all done with the intention of converting the starving man.

I don't believe that bibles were sent to New Orleans to comfort the faithful. I dare say I'd keep myself busy other things - even with prayer - if I didn't have a bible handy - if I was really all that faithful. I believe the bibles were sent to convert people, and someone converted under duress, is not really "converted" in their heart, are they?
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  #40  
Old 25 September 2007, 04:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Mickey Blue View Post
AI don't know the company, but I'd imagine their bibles are "fancier" in some way, something people may want to give as gifts or display in their home or whatever, where as free bibles are more basic. You certainly don't have to go to them to get a bible, and they may even refer you to where you can get free ones, but if you want one that has more pizazz then thats where you go.. I'd imagine.
I understand all that. It still sounds like making a profit of THE LORD. Which seems just a wee bit blasphemous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey Blue View Post
To me its like saying that there are still starving, hungry and dying people out there in the US and worldwide.. So whats the point of donating toys for tots or to the SCPA? Once the rest is taken care of we can worry about that.
Actually, it's like saying, "We know you're starving, but here's a toy to play with, because you'll like it." It's nice and fun, but it doesn't really do much good in the grand scheme of things, when the starving child dies of malnutrition. But at least the child was entertained for a bit.
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