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  #41  
Old 21 January 2019, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Winston O'Boogie View Post
Can't override a veto if no legislation goes to the President in the first place.
Yes, and the republicans in Congress would be the reason nothing has gone up. It is their choice not to vote on a budget that they expect Trump to veto. It is by their own volition, and it is within their power—even more so than Trump's—to end this shutdown.

The President cannot pass a budget without Congress. Congress CAN pass a budget without the President. The trouble is our congress as a whole has consistently abdicated their power as a co-equal branch of government, seeming to want to rely more on appointed cabinet members to act as a check and balance to the leader of their own department, rather than fulfilling their duties under the Constitution. Case and point with the recent change in SECDEFs. General Mattis was not supposed to be the adult in the room, Congress was. Relying on him to be so shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the legislatures role in our government.

Once more, do not give the republicans in Congress a pass for this. They are not powerless to end this.
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  #42  
Old 21 January 2019, 01:53 PM
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More wall is a terrible idea in itself; it will do actual damage. I wish the Democrats would stress that more. A lot of people have the idea that the problem is only that it would be a waste of money.

And while it's true that it's not possible to override a veto that hasn't happened, if Congress handed Trump legislation to re-open the government sans wall money with a two-thirds vote in both houses already in place, that would make it clear that there was no sense his vetoing it. If he did veto it anyway at that point, then just pass it again. The Senate already passed basically the same thing at 100% -- the problem is that it lapsed when the new Congress came in.

Yes, it's on Trump. But at this point it's also on the Republicans in Congress.

ETA: partly spanked by ASL.
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  #43  
Old 21 January 2019, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ASL View Post
Once more, do not give the republicans in Congress a pass for this. They are not powerless to end this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post

Yes, it's on Trump. But at this point it's also on the Republicans in Congress.

ETA: partly spanked by ASL.
Hence my comparison of McConnell to a worm. Trump is the cause, McConnell is the enabler. I give no one a pass.
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  #44  
Old 21 January 2019, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Winston O'Boogie View Post
He won't even bring anything up for debate unless Herr Trump would be willing to sign it.
Hijack: What exactly is the meaning of calling somebody "Herr ..." in such a context? I understand that it means linking the person or his behaviour to Germans, and specifically to Germans in WW II. But is it the equivalent of calling somebody a Nazi? Or is it more about ordering people around (as depicted in lots of allied WW II propaganda movies)?
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  #45  
Old 21 January 2019, 04:53 PM
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It's a straight up comparison to Nazis in the US. "Nazi" is still probably the single most common word people think of when they hear "German."
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  #46  
Old 21 January 2019, 05:15 PM
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Wait, what? Do you immediately equate the German language with Nazis?
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  #47  
Old 21 January 2019, 05:31 PM
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When I hear "German" I think "Volkswagen". Or more generally Germany's for high quality engineering.
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  #48  
Old 21 January 2019, 05:34 PM
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There needs to be other markers (like a person the audience assumes to be tyrannical) but that's probably the most common implication. German language might also signal a concern with rules and order but in that case the connection is usually explicit in the meaning of the words.
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  #49  
Old 21 January 2019, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Winston O'Boogie View Post
If she had come out with "$6b (firm limit) for the wall in exchange for permanent DACA", he'd look like the stubborn baby he is.
Very bad idea. Appropriations bills are considered seperately from legislation. So Democrats would have to pass the resolution with wall funding and then depend on Trump honoring his promise to pass the permanent DACA bill.
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  #50  
Old 21 January 2019, 07:51 PM
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Which is a problem, at this point, with just about anything that Trump proposes.

The Senate needs to do its job and pass re-opening bills. There's no way of telling what Trump will or won't sign until he does or doesn't sign it, anyway.
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  #51  
Old 21 January 2019, 10:50 PM
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On my way back from Europe I flew through the US. The TSA scan was marginal at best. Carry-on onto the conveyor, don't empty pockets, don't remove footwear of jackets and step through the machine. Total time was less than a minute.

This was unfortunately overcompensated for by the far longer than usual wait at customs and immigration.
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  #52  
Old 21 January 2019, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
It's a straight up comparison to Nazis in the US. "Nazi" is still probably the single most common word people think of when they hear "German."
I'm a bit surprised by this one too. Maybe my dad's generation or so might have had that reflex. (Although, I have to admit my first reflex might be "East or West?" I don't think that's quite common either, even for those who remember.)
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  #53  
Old 22 January 2019, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Winston O'Boogie View Post
If she had come out with "$6b (firm limit) for the wall in exchange for permanent DACA", he'd look like the stubborn baby he is.
This is a terrible idea. $6 billion is an enormous amount of money to spend, and it is going toward somehing stupid, harmful, and connected to terrible policy. I don't think there should be any deal that includes that. If a deal did include that, it would have to be offset with permanent single-payer healthcare, plus DACA, at the very least. IOW, it's a nonstarter as a deal with this administration.
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  #54  
Old 22 January 2019, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Beachlife! View Post
Wait, what? Do you immediately equate the German language with Nazis?
No, but a lot of people do. I blame the fact that we have an endless series of TV shows on World War 2 on TV, plus all the war movies, and Godwin's Law. And the US's general lack of Humanities and Social Studies in the education system.

When someone uses gratuitous German to refer to the president, they're generally not making a reference to the Berlin Wall (no matter how appropriate it might be).
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  #55  
Old 22 January 2019, 05:12 AM
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JFK: Ich bin ein Berliner
Abe Simpson: He’s a Nazi, get him!
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  #56  
Old 22 January 2019, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwins View Post
This is a terrible idea. $6 billion is an enormous amount of money to spend, and it is going toward somehing stupid, harmful, and connected to terrible policy. I don't think there should be any deal that includes that. If a deal did include that, it would have to be offset with permanent single-payer healthcare, plus DACA, at the very least. IOW, it's a nonstarter as a deal with this administration.
Also pretty much every independent source I've seen says the wall is going to cost WAY more than that, at least double and maybe much higher.

If they compromised and let Trump have $6 billion then at some later point we'd just have to go through this shutdown process all over again when he inevitably demanded even more money, only this time he'd be arguing from a stronger position because he'd know he could wait them out.

(And I say "we" would have to go through it again because I know people in Australia who have been directly affected by the shutdown.)
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  #57  
Old 22 January 2019, 01:23 PM
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The higher price is generally for the full "wall". IE, two walls 30' high made of concrete with metal bars at the top to limit climbing covering the entire border. What Trump is proposing here for the $5.7 billion is a single, smaller wall in select locations, so that might be the correct price.

Although I doubt Trump has ever brought in a project under budget (except by not paying the contractors).
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  #58  
Old 22 January 2019, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gutter Monkey View Post
If they compromised and let Trump have $6 billion then at some later point we'd just have to go through this shutdown process all over again when he inevitably demanded even more money, only this time he'd be arguing from a stronger position because he'd know he could wait them out.
Not to mention that he'd do it again next time a funding bill was needed and Trump wanted something, anything, that Congress didn't want to give him.
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  #59  
Old 24 January 2019, 02:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASL View Post
Yes, and the republicans in Congress would be the reason nothing has gone up. It is their choice not to vote on a budget that they expect Trump to veto. It is by their own volition, and it is within their power—even more so than Trump's—to end this shutdown.

The President cannot pass a budget without Congress. Congress CAN pass a budget without the President. The trouble is our congress as a whole has consistently abdicated their power as a co-equal branch of government, seeming to want to rely more on appointed cabinet members to act as a check and balance to the leader of their own department, rather than fulfilling their duties under the Constitution. Case and point with the recent change in SECDEFs. General Mattis was not supposed to be the adult in the room, Congress was. Relying on him to be so shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the legislatures role in our government.

Once more, do not give the republicans in Congress a pass for this. They are not powerless to end this.
I am so in agreement with you. Even if Mitch McConnell took a vote, got the majority needed, and Trump still ignored him (because Trump believes that being president is synonymous with being God-Emperor), at least Mitch would still be doing something, which would allow me to credit him as possessing something resembling a spine and moral principles. Also in that scenario, if Trump ignored the clear and direct ruling, it would further provide something for the opposition to build on, something to use toimpeach the SOB, run him out on a rail, and maybe salvage the shreds of what remains of our democracy.

But Mitch doesn’t do any of this, because when he sold his soul for money and power, he also traded away his spine as well.

When the chief architect of the red scare, Senator Joseph McCarthy, was censured by the Senate, it was his own party, the GOP, who led the charge. But the GOP has basically become a doomsday cult; if they go down, they will happily drag everyone down with them.
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  #60  
Old 25 January 2019, 10:24 PM
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Trump ends government shutdown after realizing unpaid FBI agents can still arrest people

Link

I know it is satire, but this was quick and it is funny.
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