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  #1  
Old 31 October 2017, 01:06 PM
pinqy pinqy is offline
 
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Default I cannot be outraged over Kevin Spacey allegations.

Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, Bill O'Reilly, Mark Halperin, John Besh. All have a history of using their power, influence, positions to force/coerce sex from people.

Kevin Spacey is accused of being drunk and unsuccessfully hitting on a teenage boy once, 30 years ago. Yes of course his behavior was inappropriate, but it's not anywhere near the same category as Cosby, Weinstein, et al.

Everybody who has ever been drunk has done something inappropriate while intoxicated. That doesn't mean the individual acts are not wrong, just that it would be extraordinarily burdensome to condemn everybody who did something inappropriate.

IF Spacey had gone as far as fondling, or gotten naked, or tried to undress Rapp etc, I'd be on the bandwagon of condemnation. But he took him to the bed and made a pass, from which Rapp extricated himself without a struggle, and was not prevented from leaving when he said he wanted to go. Yes, I can see the incident itself as being disturbing, yes Spacey was in the wrong, and yes I do have sympathy for Rapp.

But the timing of the reveal unfairly skewers Spacey by lumping him in with real sexual predators.

Naturally, if it is later revealed that this was not an isolated incident but that Spacey did this multiple times to other people, I will change my opinion.
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  #2  
Old 31 October 2017, 01:10 PM
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Agree agree agree. And to me, it seems like people are making a big deal of his coming out as gay. IMO that has nothing to do with being a sexual predator.
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  #3  
Old 31 October 2017, 02:04 PM
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Crius of CoH Crius of CoH is offline
 
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Just heard this on the radio, so provenance and reliability unknown, but apparently Kevin's estranged brother spoke out that the their father was an American Nazi, and that they'd both been sexually abused as children by him. Not an excuse, but possibly an explanation for unusual behavior (not being gay, but the allegation).

Also, the outrage seems to be more from the gay community, who rightfully perceive the lumping together of Kevin's apology with his coming out as unfairly lumping together gay sexual orientation with sexual abuse.

Seems like a hell of a mess; barring any further shocking reveals, it looks like Mr. Spacey is going to take a huge hit to his life and career for no very good reason except public opinion/backlash.

However, rather like the way there have been several sly references to Harvey Weinstein's predilections by various comedians over the years, it seems like maybe there's something more to Kevin Spacey as well: the same radio show also noted that Family Guy referenced Mr. Spacey in an episode 10 years ago, with Stewie panicking about "escaping from Kevin Spacey's basement."
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  #4  
Old 31 October 2017, 02:39 PM
pinqy pinqy is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Crius of CoH View Post
Just heard this on the radio, so provenance and reliability unknown, but apparently Kevin's estranged brother spoke out that the their father was an American Nazi, and that they'd both been sexually abused as children by him. Not an excuse, but possibly an explanation for unusual behavior (not being gay, but the allegation).

Also, the outrage seems to be more from the gay community, who rightfully perceive the lumping together of Kevin's apology with his coming out as unfairly lumping together gay sexual orientation with sexual abuse.

Seems like a hell of a mess; barring any further shocking reveals, it looks like Mr. Spacey is going to take a huge hit to his life and career for no very good reason except public opinion/backlash.

However, rather like the way there have been several sly references to Harvey Weinstein's predilections by various comedians over the years, it seems like maybe there's something more to Kevin Spacey as well: the same radio show also noted that Family Guy referenced Mr. Spacey in an episode 10 years ago, with Stewie panicking about "escaping from Kevin Spacey's basement."
Kevin Spacey would never talk about his sexuality, one way or the other. So for me, to come out as gay when accused of inappropriate same-sex behavior is exactly the time to break the silence and admit it. I don't see it as trying to get cover (I don't even understand how that would work).

I suspect that the Family Guy joke about Spacey could have been based either on his unsavory characters, like in Seven or Usual Suspects, or on his known but closeted sexuality. It doesn't necessarily mean there were any rumors of his behavior. Again, I'll revise my opinion with new facts.
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  #5  
Old 31 October 2017, 02:43 PM
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Lainie Lainie is offline
 
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I can see the point pinqy is making, but to me, making that sort of advance on someone you know to be underage is qualitatively different from making the same advance on another adult. The apparent size differential between Rapp and Spacey (Rapp describes Spacey picking him up and putting him on the bed) is another factor that IMO ups the creep factor.
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  #6  
Old 31 October 2017, 02:47 PM
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I also agree with pinqy.

Spacey is getting a lot of heat for coming out at this time, but honestly, what was he to do? Ours is a world where straight is still more or less the default norm. If he made the same apologetic statement without coming out, it would be ignoring the elephant in the room. If he flat out denied the incident, he would be whisperingly accused of denying his orientation. Yes, he should have just come out a long time ago, but that doesn't justify criticizing him for doing it now.

As for the Family Guy joke, I took it to be more based on tired gay and Hollywood stereotypes, perhaps linked to Spacey's alleged flamboyant behind-the-scenes persona. I don't see it as any more specific than if it was a "don't drop the soap" joke about any famous man in jail.

Edit- To Lainie's point: Yes, the fact that Rapp was a minor does make it creepier, but if Spacey was a young and very drunk man, I don't think it was that much creepier. As pinqy said, very wrong, but nowhere near the level of what Weinstein and the others are accused of.

Last edited by ChasFink; 31 October 2017 at 02:53 PM.
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  #7  
Old 31 October 2017, 02:52 PM
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Darth Credence Darth Credence is online now
 
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In his interview with Buzzfeed, Rapp said that Spacey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzfeed News
picked Rapp up, placed him on his bed, and climbed on top of him, making a sexual advance.
You say that if he had gone as far as fondling, you would be on the condemnation bandwagon. Is picking someone up, putting them on a bed, and laying on top of them close enough? Or was that just something that happens when one is drunk?

And FTR, I drink, but I have never done anything while drunk that I am ashamed of; certainly not anything that could ever be said to be sexual assault. I've sung some bad karaoke, and I have spent a night on the floor of my bathroom, but that is as close to inappropriate as it has gotten. If you believe that everyone has done something on par with what Spacey has done here while drunk, it says an awful lot more about you and what you do while drunk than what anyone else does.
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  #8  
Old 31 October 2017, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChasFink View Post
If he flat out denied the incident, he would be whisperingly accused of denying his orientation.
Only by people who conflate an inappropriate sexual advance on a male teenager with homosexuality in general. So, the same people who will now use Spacey's coming out in this context as evidence that see, gay people molest young boys!

That is what people are objecting to, AIUI: that he (perhaps unintentionally) drew a connection that is easily exploited by homophobes.

I don't see how his orientation is at all relevant to the accusation he was responding to. The advance would have been equally inappropriate if the 14YO in question had been a girl.

ETA: Like Darth Credence, I have never done such a thing while drunk, and don't believe it's all that common. If someone had done it to me or to my child, I'd consider it assault.
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  #9  
Old 31 October 2017, 02:58 PM
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I agree with others, if this is a pattern of behavior then fine, lump it in with Cosby, Weinstein and the rest. One incident from 30 years ago? Not even close.
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  #10  
Old 31 October 2017, 03:07 PM
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What he did was not "fine," not even once. I agree there's not evidence at this point that he's a predator.

As for the timing of the accusation, it is Rapp's story to tell, and the timing of his telling it is for no one but him to decide on or judge, IMO. He certainly doesn't owe Spacey any particular courtesy regarding when or where he tells the story. If it has unfortunate consequences for Spacey, he'll just have to suck it up.
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  #11  
Old 31 October 2017, 03:47 PM
pinqy pinqy is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Credence View Post
In his interview with Buzzfeed, Rapp said that Spacey


You say that if he had gone as far as fondling, you would be on the condemnation bandwagon. Is picking someone up, putting them on a bed, and laying on top of them close enough? Or was that just something that happens when one is drunk?
In a drunken, horny, partly incoherent state? (yes, I am making that assumption, which seems justified given what we know) I can see that making sense at the time when you're just thinking about what you want and not thinking about the other person's opinion until they give it. It was clumsy, but non-violent, and most importantly, stopped when Rapp said stop. And did not continue afterwards. I've been hit on similarly by drunk people. (ok, not physically picked up).

Yes, there is a fine line between that and date rape and again, I'm not saying Spacey's behavior was ok. He was clearly and absolutely in the wrong.

But not a sexual predator.

Quote:
And FTR, I drink, but I have never done anything while drunk that I am ashamed of; certainly not anything that could ever be said to be sexual assault. I've sung some bad karaoke, and I have spent a night on the floor of my bathroom, but that is as close to inappropriate as it has gotten. If you believe that everyone has done something on par with what Spacey has done here while drunk, it says an awful lot more about you and what you do while drunk than what anyone else does.
I said "something inappropriate." I wasn't saying all such inappropriate things were on par with what Spacey allegedly did. I would not consider what he did as sexual assault, though it is in a grey area. And yes, I have been technically sexually assaulted by at least 2 drunk people. Inappropriate contact that stopped when I said stop. Didn't scar me or negatively affect me.

I think the worst that I actually did while drunk was try for a kiss or a hug. And drunken declarations of eternal love.
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  #12  
Old 31 October 2017, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
Only by people who conflate an inappropriate sexual advance on a male teenager with homosexuality in general. So, the same people who will now use Spacey's coming out in this context as evidence that see, gay people molest young boys!

That is what people are objecting to, AIUI: that he (perhaps unintentionally) drew a connection that is easily exploited by homophobes.
Also, the way in which he's coming out is being seen as an attempt to draw attention away from his victim and make it about himself and how he's been in the closet for so long.
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  #13  
Old 31 October 2017, 05:50 PM
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Are people actually saying that? Of course I shouldn't be surprised. Nothing Spacey said was going to be enough mea culpa for some. He acknowledged the incident probably happened, owned it and apologized. Considering how many liars out there (Trump leading the charge) who deny things they've said and done that are actually on tape it should be seen as a positive that he didn't deny it and go into lockdown mode but no. Let's not even give him that much credit.
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  #14  
Old 31 October 2017, 06:20 PM
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I am not, in fact, prepared to give him any credit for not flat-out denying it. I don't see why I should. His conflation of an apology with his coming out has the potential to harm people. "So-and-so did something worse" is an excuse I never accepted from my daughter when she was growing up, and I'm sick of hearing it offered for/by adults.
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  #15  
Old 31 October 2017, 06:39 PM
Ellestar Ellestar is offline
 
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I like Kevin Spacey's work and I want to be forgiving. However, 14 is really young. I'm not sure of the particulars, but it was my understanding that Spacey knew Rapp's age prior to getting drunk. His young age and size puts this into full creep mode for me.

I do appreciate he stopped when he was told no. And if he, in fact, did not know Rapp before this encounter, my mind will change a little. This may have been a mistake, and if that's the case, this will be an isolated incident and I'd be more willing to "forgive" Spacey for it.

But still. I remember being 14 and how little I would have been able to cope with a similar situation. Also, while there has been a time or two I was mildly inappropriate with the opposite sex when drunk at a party, my behavior would have been markedly different if I knew the other person was not only a minor, but 14 years old.
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  #16  
Old 31 October 2017, 07:12 PM
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I mean, this is the only official public accusation attached to a specific name. But I would be careful about going out on a limb to defend him as someone who made an "isolated" mistake 30 years ago. There have long been rumors about him that are not limited to his sexuality, but to his aggressive behavior against many different young men. Not necessarily minors, but always way younger than him and not taking no for an answer.
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  #17  
Old 31 October 2017, 07:13 PM
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There is a wide spectrum of opinion here about how "bad" the alleged incident was, but I want to go back to the coming out issue.

If Spacey had confessed/apologized and not come out, people would say "he admits he might have come on to a 14-year-old boy but he still won't say he's gay? What kind of self-hating nutjob is this?"

If he had denied the incident, people would have said "he's obviously just denying it because he doesn't want people to know he's gay."

It's sad in this day and age that people - especially in entertainment - are afraid to casually mention their orientation in public, but many are. Spacey was among them. He was in a no-win situation, but I think he did the best he could under the circumstances.
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  #18  
Old 31 October 2017, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
Also, the way in which he's coming out is being seen as an attempt to draw attention away from his victim and make it about himself and how he's been in the closet for so long.
For example:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChasFink View Post
[Spacey] was in a no-win situation, but I think he did the best he could under the circumstances.
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  #19  
Old 31 October 2017, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChasFink View Post
If Spacey had confessed/apologized and not come out, people would say "he admits he might have come on to a 14-year-old boy but he still won't say he's gay? What kind of self-hating nutjob is this?"
And so what if they did? What harm would that have caused, and to whom? If the answer is "Kevin Spacey," then we're back to him having made it about him and not Rapp.
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  #20  
Old 31 October 2017, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
I am not, in fact, prepared to give him any credit for not flat-out denying it. I don't see why I should. His conflation of an apology with his coming out has the potential to harm people. "So-and-so did something worse" is an excuse I never accepted from my daughter when she was growing up, and I'm sick of hearing it offered for/by adults.
Are you prepared to "give him credit" that currently it is a "he said, he doesn't remember" situation? Baring further revelations the current story is neither believable nor unbelievable.
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