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Old 28 September 2017, 02:12 PM
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Default Trump's tax plan could actually benefit wealthy people like him

President Trump is making one thing clear about his plan to cut taxes: It won't be a windfall for the richest Americans, including him.

"It's not good for me, believe me," Trump said in a speech unveiling the tax reform blueprint on Wednesday.

"We're targeting relief to working families," Trump said in Indianapolis. "We will make sure benefits are focused on the middle class, the working men and women, not the highest-income earners."

A lot would have to change before that's true.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...him/709648001/

Trump pushing an agenda that benefits him and not the average Joe or Jane? I'm shocked .
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  #2  
Old 28 September 2017, 02:39 PM
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The sad thing about Trump is that he is a horrible liar, but people still keep accepting what he says. He has more tells that the main hall of the convention of bad poker players. He exhibits classic liar behavior, like repeating the lie two or three times or ending each lie with "believe me". Sometimes, when he's really lying hard, he repeats "believe me".
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Old 28 September 2017, 02:52 PM
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I wonder if the coal miners who believed him when he said he'd get them their jobs back have realized they trusted a lying liar who lies.
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Old 28 September 2017, 03:01 PM
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Tell people an attractive enough lie and they'll disregard your tells. It's a powerful technique, if you're sufficiently lacking in moral character to use it.
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Old 28 September 2017, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sue View Post
I wonder if the coal miners who believed him when he said he'd get them their jobs back have realized they trusted a lying liar who lies.
There was an interview right after the election: from the sounds of things, they knew he was a liar well before-hand, but decided to vote for him anyway because it sounded nice.
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Old 28 September 2017, 03:39 PM
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It sounds like it is the same thing some people do when they play the lottery. "I know it won't actually do anything to benefit me, but it is fun to dream for a little bit."
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Old 28 September 2017, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
There was an interview right after the election: from the sounds of things, they knew he was a liar well before-hand, but decided to vote for him anyway because it sounded nice.
That may be true for some but I read several articles around the time of the election where coal miners and similar people from hard hit areas genuinely seemed to believe that Trump was coming to save them. It was heartbreaking and baffling.
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Old 28 September 2017, 04:03 PM
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I'm going to sound like a broken record. It's motivated reasoning. "I know he's a liar to the liberals and the fake news, just to wind them up and watch them run around squeaking...But I believe he does care about working people like me [because it feels good to think so.]

Some may have worked through the rationalizations and arrived at one of the last resorts: "eh, all politicians lie and look out for their own interests, but he's (not as bad/better on immigration/a businessman/etc.) so (it'll be better/at least he's keeping the riffraff out/he'll run the country like a business/etc.).

All of which is just covering up "I like how I feel when he talks. I'm angry that I don't have what I want. He makes me feel like there are enemies out to get me, and they are the reason I'm not rich and successful, and happy, but he is fighting them for me. So I feel angry, but also like it's OK to be so angry, and it's not my fault I'm not happier--its their fault, and I don't really have to do anything except vote and be angry, and maybe kick some [butt] if I feel like it."
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Old 29 September 2017, 01:44 AM
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It's not enough that he's an idiotic liar; it's the outright pettiness of Donald Trump's cruelty that gets me. Even though it would actually benefit him to let criticism of him slide, he just can't and once insulted, he throws a hissy and tries to do whatever he can to ruin the lives of others. This of course, ends up backfiring spectacularly, because it further reinforces what a thinned-skinned and petty person he is.

It's a basic rule of politics. Even if you're the greatest president who ever lived, so great you should be named George Jefferson Roosevelt-Lincoln (because you're basically a presidential Voltron of greatness), there will be someone who isn't happy with the job you're doing. Maybe they have a legitimate point or maybe they've been huffing glue all their lives, but someone won't like you. You just have to deal with it.

I've also wondered if a percentage of Trump's voters consisted of 4chan-like trolls who elected him because he puts on an amusing show and they wanted it to go on. And it never occurred to them that said amusing spectacle could actually affect the lives of others...
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Old 29 September 2017, 03:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sue View Post
I wonder if the coal miners who believed him when he said he'd get them their jobs back have realized they trusted a lying liar who lies.
That wasn't a lie for the miners. After all, there's only a few thousand left in the US. That was just a dogwhistle to the anti-environmentalists, people who oppose climate science, and people who think that the old days were the good old days, etc. Yeah, lots of miners and people in mining country voted for Trump but it's not as if the GOP was ever in great danger of losing that vote. The democratic party lost its presidential vote there many years ago.
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Old 29 September 2017, 12:54 PM
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Stupid question: when was there last a tax cut in the US that DIDN'T primarily help the rich?
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Old 29 September 2017, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
That wasn't a lie for the miners.
Regardless of his true audience or true intent (if the word true even applies to Trump) there were real people affected by this lie who believed what he was saying. They may very well have voted for him anyway but they voted for him at least in part because he lied to them and made them believe he actually cared about their poverty and their hopes ..

Last edited by Sue; 29 September 2017 at 01:38 PM.
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  #13  
Old 29 September 2017, 02:25 PM
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The proposal wants to tax pass-through businesses as businesses, at 25%.

What's a pass-through business, you may ask? Any business which currently passes through its net income to its proprietors, who then pay tax on it at income tax levels -- sole proprietorships, partnerships, and certain limited types of corporations. Very many self-employed people -- farmers included -- have pass-through businesses. A high percentage of these people have low incomes. For some of them, such business is most or all of their household income.

This is being presented as a way to lower taxes for the small percentage who have high enough incomes that they'd otherwise be taxed at a higher rate. But, as near as I can tell (I'm still trying to figure out exactly what they mean), what it would do in most cases is to drastically raise taxes for most people affected, who would otherwise be paying in lower tax bracket(s) or in some cases not owe any income tax.

It would also seem to me to massively discourage people in lower income tax brackets from starting up any business, either on its own or as a sideline. Even if the business is eventually going to grow to the point at which it either becomes the other type of corporation anyway or puts them into a 25%+ tax bracket overall, it's hardly likely to start there. And quite a lot of small businesses never reach either of those points, but are sustaining both families and communities.
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Old 29 September 2017, 03:01 PM
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Donald Trump's organization owns over 500 pass-through businesses. That's all you need to know about the why.
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  #15  
Old 29 September 2017, 07:33 PM
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From that article:

Quote:
the vast majority of small business owners who are already pay tax rates of 25% or less. (Of all business owners, 86% are in the 25% bracket or lower.)
Trump's presumably are in the other 14%.

-- the article seems to think that the only problem for that 86% is that we'd be 'left out of the bonanza'. It's not clear to me that a lot of us wouldn't have a much bigger problem than that with it.

ETA: Every article I've seen on this is concentrating on the windfall for the 14%. None of them are mentioning the impact on those in lower tax brackets. I don't know whether this is because I'm misunderstanding and people in personal income tax brackets lower than 25% wouldn't be paying a higher rate than we do now, or whether it's because the people writing the articles just aren't considering that part of the issue.
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  #16  
Old 29 September 2017, 08:53 PM
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And in case anyone needs a reminder, getting rid of the estate tax will not help "millions of small businesses and the American farmer."
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Old 29 September 2017, 08:57 PM
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A specific concern I heard mentioned in NPR coverage of the pass-through rate is that people will try to pass off salaries as pass-through profits.
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Old 29 September 2017, 09:02 PM
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In many ways, being a one person contractor is far more beneficial tax wise than being an employee. This will just make it far more beneficial for those that are.

But now I can see a huge amount of people trying to get that set up... and it will impact a lot of other things.
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Old 30 September 2017, 02:59 AM
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Quote:
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In many ways, being a one person contractor is far more beneficial tax wise than being an employee. This will just make it far more beneficial for those that are.
Only for the small percentage who are making lots of money.

Most people running pass-through businesses will have at best no benefit.

And there are already things making it less beneficial tax wise for many than being an employee. Paying both halves of social security and medicare taxes, for instance.

-- there are also some fairly clear standards for being an independent contractor rather than an employee; put in place to prevent employers from, among other things, ducking out on their half of those taxes by claiming their employees to be independent contractors.
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Old 30 September 2017, 04:18 AM
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Thorny locust, I am not an accountant or a tax lawyer, and this is genuinely a question and not advice, but I wonder if, for anyone in the lower tax brackets you referred to, it would be as simple as having the business pay the owner/operator a salary instead of distributing profits.

Even if that doesn't work, in the long run, changing the effect of setting up a business in a particular way means that anyone disadvantaged by doing it that way will likely find a different way. In the short run, it could well cause problems for people that already have businesses set up that way. Particularly for those that don't have teams of lawyers and accountants already planning how to best take advantage of the new rules.
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