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  #41  
Old 16 August 2017, 12:19 AM
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Their level of dishonesty is so high that the truth really doesn't matter. They'll claim they were the innocent victims. On both sides. Both sides of their brains are nfbsked up.
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  #42  
Old 16 August 2017, 12:31 AM
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I would be interested to see any verified incidents of violence (however minor) instigated by the counter-protesters in Charlottesville. It's possible some exist, but I haven't seen any (though I haven't been digging for any). It still wouldn't level the moral playing field by any means, but there would be some difference between a major distortion and a complete fabrication.

(And who exactly is the "alt-left" anyway? The "alt-right" is a group that labelled itself. I think people are trying to slap the "alt-left" label on some brands of liberals, or maybe someone has actually is claiming it, but a brief Google search shows very little consensus on the matter. I think we need to stomp that label into the ground fast. Though it may be kind of ironic that striking out at the "alt-left" for supposedly being repressive and violent, kind of implies an agreement that the alt-right cherishes those qualities...)
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  #43  
Old 16 August 2017, 01:27 AM
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The Times has a decent summary of the terms here.

And your thought is pretty much what they say the alt-left means.
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  #44  
Old 16 August 2017, 02:28 AM
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As John Oliver and many wonderful people have pointed out, Trump can't even say, "Nazis are bad," which is one of the easiest and most mundane parts of being president. Like John Oliver said, it's right up there with pardoning turkeys at thanksgiving in terms of ease. God help us when thanksgiving rolls around...no it would be more accurate to say God help those poor turkeys.
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  #45  
Old 16 August 2017, 02:33 AM
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Everybody knows turkeys are bad hombres.
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  #46  
Old 16 August 2017, 02:43 AM
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Hopefully he doesn’t confuse turkeys with Turkey and decide to bomb them....
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  #47  
Old 16 August 2017, 02:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E. Q. Taft View Post
I would be interested to see any verified incidents of violence (however minor) instigated by the counter-protesters in Charlottesville. It's possible some exist, but I haven't seen any (though I haven't been digging for any).
Not really in disagreement with that; there was violence on both sides, but instigation is another question. As near as I can tell,

http://wset.com/news/local/white-nat...s-clash-at-uva

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...ille-timeline/

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/14/us/cha...ock/index.html



there was violence associated with the specific rally (aside from the murderer with the car) in three sorts of situations:

1) the night before the main rally was scheduled, at a statue on the campus

2) at the site where the main rally was scheduled, shortly before it was scheduled to start

3) in multiple skirmishes on the streets as police cleared out ralliers and counterprotesters from the area, after police declared the whole thing illegal because of the violence in 2).

The descriptions I found of the first two seem fairly clear that the white supremacists marched on and/or charged at counterdemonstrators; though who struck the first actual blow isn't in the news accounts I found, and may not be known. Who started the assorted fights that broke out as the area was being cleared, and for what definition of "started", is even less clear; and of course may have varied. Both sides are claimed to have used pepper spray, fists, and clubs. Apparently, despite the amount of weaponry present, nobody started shooting; though it doesn't sound as if it would have been easy to do so without hitting one's own side. -- I haven't actually seen any reports that any of the counterprotestors had anything beyond pepper spray and (possibly improvised) clubs; but at least some of the supremacists had brought pistols and rifles, including semiautomatics.

Despite the police claims it really does seem to me that the police weren't prepared for this. I don't know whether they should reasonably have been expecting the Friday night clash, or have been able to have gotten there faster; but they seem, at the least, to have been unprepared for the possibility that the supremacists wouldn't stick neatly to their planned location, and voluntarily stay out of the area intended to be for counterprotestors.

Admittedly, if you'd asked me a couple of years ago whether we needed to be preparing for hundreds of out-of-town Nazis charging people in the streets of Charlottesville shouting 'Our streets! Our streets!' --
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  #48  
Old 16 August 2017, 02:56 AM
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Those people standing with him, Kelly et al, looking ashamed are only embarrassed he's saying it public. Otherwise they would have left him long long ago. This man entered politics with a racist attack on the president of the US. There was no point at which (g)you could stand on a platform with him and not be standing for the exact same racist stuff as he's been spouting all along. This did not start with Charlottesville.
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  #49  
Old 16 August 2017, 03:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diddy View Post
Hopefully he doesn’t confuse turkeys with Turkey and decide to bomb them....
Nah, worst case scenario he'll pardon them. Unless he decides to take a "tough on crime" stance this November. In which case, Turkey could be cooked.
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  #50  
Old 16 August 2017, 03:44 AM
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So according to Trump there are "very fine people on both sides". What the hell? Do Republicans get that he is basically saying that the nazis and white supremacists that were in Charlottesville are just part and parcel of what it means to be on the right in the US?
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  #51  
Old 16 August 2017, 04:59 AM
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Unexpected results, to put it mildly; but as near as I can tell this is real:

Quote:
Two very different groups joined forces outside Charleston City Hall Tuesday to send a unified call for peace and civil conversations amid racial tensions.

[ . . . ]

"I know this is a very awkward scene," Shakem Amen Akhet, of the Charleston Black Nationalist Movement, said. "Never before have you seen these two separate factions together standing at one podium."
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  #52  
Old 16 August 2017, 06:12 AM
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I'm actually starting to think this may be the tipping point for Trump. In addition to his usual GOP critics like Lindsey Graham and John McCain, people like Marco Rubio and even Ted NFBSKing Cruz are starting to call him out on this. (Well, OK, Cruz doesn't actually attack Trump directly, at least in what I've linked here, but he does say of the cancelled Texas A&M rally by White Lives Matter, "I’m glad that Spencer and the White Supremacists are not coming to A&M. … I think Texas doesn’t need to listen to their garbage.”) Jeb Bush spoke out, too.

After a whole campaign year of Trump's nonstop insults, his fellow GOP candidates for the most part swallowed their bile in the general election for the sake of party unity and defeating Hillary Clinton...but they haven't forgotten; and while individually none of them could defeat him, collectively they still have clout in the Republican party. I find it interesting that this is the issue they would feel safe jumping on. We presume a lot of Trump's mealy-mouthness on the issue is fear of losing the support of white racists; you would think that would concern the others, too. Then again, maybe they figure the David Dukes and that ilk are so far on the Trump bandwagon, they've nothing to lose, and a lot to gain among those conservatives and moderates who are still appalled at the swastika.
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  #53  
Old 16 August 2017, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
Unexpected results, to put it mildly; but as near as I can tell this is real:
I'm rolling my eyes at the South Carolina Secessionist Party and the Charleston Black Nationalist Movement hug-a-thon. Both groups may well advocate for the same thing: a separation of the races. "Hey, I'm not a racist, I just think the blacks should never have left African and the whites should never have left Europe: surely we can all agree that sounds reasonable, right? The redskins'll probably get off on that idea too!" Not unlike the foam-at-the-mouth Christian fundamentalists who believe unrepentant (ie: unbaptized/converted to Christianity) Jews will burn in hell for "killing our Savior," but are huge fans of supporting Israel and Zionism so they can bring about the end times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by E. Q. Taft View Post
I'm actually starting to think this may be the tipping point for Trump. In addition to his usual GOP critics like Lindsey Graham and John McCain, people like Marco Rubio and even Ted NFBSKing Cruz are starting to call him out on this.
Sure. The same former opponents who, as you note, only just managed to swallow their bile so Trump could have a chance in hell to defeat the evil witch. Not exactly heartening. I don't think this will in any way, shape, or form be a tipping point for the GOP or Trump or the nation anymore than some random Iranian and Israeli bloggers saying "I heart you" brought about peace in the middle east.

I know, I know: I'm a cynic. Puppies and rainbows...

Last edited by ASL; 16 August 2017 at 08:17 AM.
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  #54  
Old 16 August 2017, 08:42 AM
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I agree Rubio and Cruz 'calling him out' will change nothing. Rubio and Cruz have criticised him quite a bit before. The time to stand up, 'be a man', and leave the party was when it nominated a bigot who's been saying this kind of thing for years. None of them did it when it mattered - when he said and did things every bit as bad as this. I don't expect any of them to grow a pair of ovaries or other meaningful gonads anytime soon.
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  #55  
Old 16 August 2017, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASL View Post
I'm rolling my eyes at the South Carolina Secessionist Party and the Charleston Black Nationalist Movement hug-a-thon. Both groups may well advocate for the same thing: a separation of the races.
I did think of that; but I suspect that both of them want to claim South Carolina. I had trouble finding out, though; my search results kept coming back to this same story. Nothing else comes up at all on Google for me about "Charleston Black Nationalist Movement."
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  #56  
Old 16 August 2017, 02:43 PM
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As far as Trump's comments go, I think I know what he was trying to say, separate and apart from what he actually feels (which we can set aside for the moment). And I think the renewed backlash against him now can be blamed in great part on his inability to communicate effectively.

Imagine if his first reaction had included words like "Our entire nation feels the pain caused by the events in Charlottesville. The hateful, bigoted messages of White Supremacist, KKK, and Nazi organizations - which seem to have motivated the incident which left one dead and many injured - are antithetical to the American way of life. But I believe in freedom of speech even when I vehemently oppose the content of such speech, because I believe that good triumphs over evil and words of hate will always fade when faced with words of love. And I believe, as did great men like Gandhi and King, that violence is not a path to overcoming hate. I therefore encourage all Americans to calmly and bravely meet the challenge of hate and violence with the message of love and peace."

This is not really at odds with what he's said. If his initial statement had been that, or any coherent, well-thought-out expression of similar sentiment, we wouldn't see as much criticism, and we wouldn't see him acting like an angry crocodile backed into a corner. But even if he's reading it off notes or a teleprompter with all the passion of someone quoting the phone book, I literally don't think it's possible for him to stay on message - let alone on script - for that long. Of course, that's another reason he's not qualified for the job.
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  #57  
Old 16 August 2017, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChasFink View Post
This is not really at odds with what he's said.
Sure it is.

He's said there were "very fine people" marching among the Nazis.

He's said (same source) the counterprotestors "came violently attacking the other group" and "they came charging, that they came charging with clubs in their hands swinging clubs". Everything I've been able to find says that the supremacists were the ones who did the charging.

If he actually had made the speech you're suggesting, and had stuck with it clear through, yes, he'd be getting drastically different responses. But the problem isn't that he really wants to get across that message but misphrased it. The problem is that that isn't what he wants to say. What he wants to say is that it's perfectly fine to march along with Nazis, and that fighting back when attacked by Nazis is illegitimate behavior.
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  #58  
Old 16 August 2017, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASL View Post
Sure. The same former opponents who, as you note, only just managed to swallow their bile so Trump could have a chance in hell to defeat the evil witch. Not exactly heartening. I don't think this will in any way, shape, or form be a tipping point for the GOP or Trump or the nation anymore than some random Iranian and Israeli bloggers saying "I heart you" brought about peace in the middle east.
I certainly don't mean that I think the GOP is suddenly going to go all progressive on racial issues or change fundamentally. I just mean that maybe this is the point where they stop being afraid of Trump, and start to openly admit that while they may support parts of his agenda -- or at least support the fact that he'll rubber-stamp their agenda -- that he clearly does not have the kind of character America needs in a President; where they start being more worried about his unpopularity than they are afraid of his base.

Of course, I could be wrong. Given the track record, predicting "THAT ought to finish Trump" is a pretty poor bet.
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  #59  
Old 16 August 2017, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
He's said there were "very fine people" marching among the Nazis.
I think what he meant was that there were some "very fine people" who were not Nazis, but were simply there to protest the removal of the statue. (Although I don't agree with them, I'm sure there are "very fine people" who think the statues should remain.) He said it very badly, which is par for the course with him.

And as I said, my comments were based on what he was trying to say - that is, what he's supposed to say as a decent President of the United States. Unfortunately, it seems his own beliefs, coupled with a fuzzy comprehension of the facts (e.g. non-hate-group members in the original protest, armed aggressors in the counter-protest, both of which - although I've had difficulty researching the objective truth - seem to be untrue) always make him sound like what he wants to say, which is, as you point out, that it's okay to march with Nazis.
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  #60  
Old 16 August 2017, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChasFink View Post
I think what he meant was that there were some "very fine people" who were not Nazis, but were simply there to protest the removal of the statue.
They were marching, and chanting, along with obvious Nazis.

This is not the behavior of "very fine people".

Were there non-Nazis somewhere in Charlottesville who want the statues to stay? Quite possibly. There may well still be people clueless enough not to understand why they need to go. But anybody who was in that specific group of demonstrators was, at the very least, perfectly willing to be in with Nazis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChasFink View Post
And as I said, my comments were based on what he was trying to say - that is, what he's supposed to say as a decent President of the United States.
You seem to be assuming that he must have been trying to say what the POTUS ought to have been saying. I see no reason to assume that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChasFink View Post
Unfortunately, it seems his own beliefs[ . . .] always make him sound like what he wants to say, which is, as you point out, that it's okay to march with Nazis.
Yup. In other words, that is what he believes.

Last edited by thorny locust; 16 August 2017 at 03:56 PM. Reason: Charlotte and Charlottesville aren't the same place
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