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Old 27 September 2017, 06:38 PM
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Icon220 Jared Kushner Voted As a Woman, According to His Registration

Since moving into the White House months ago, Jared Kushner—senior advisor and son-in-law to the President, savior of the Middle East, and possible person of interest in a federal investigation—has amassed a rather extensive project portfolio. The issues under Kushner's purview include negotiating peace between Israel and Palestine, fixing the opioid crisis, updating technology across the entire federal government, and spearheading criminal justice reform, to name just a few. It seems like a nearly impossible set of challenges for anyone to tackle, and even more so for Kushner. Because in addition to not having any previous government experience, the former real estate exec has demonstrated repeated difficulty filling out simple, routine forms correctly. This includes his own voter registration form.

https://www.wired.com/story/jared-ku...tration-woman/
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  #2  
Old 27 September 2017, 06:48 PM
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Still, better to be safe than sorry. We reached out to Kris Kobach of the Presidential Advisory Commission on Election Integrity for comment on Jared's potentially improper voting status. We'll update if and when we hear back.
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Old 27 September 2017, 08:29 PM
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That article also led me to this somewhat amusing article https://www.wired.com/story/trump-wo...on-wish-lists/ on Trump inner-circle/former inner-circle Amazon wish lists. Spoiler alert: no one will actually cop to the wish list belonging to him, even when it almost certainly does.
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Old 03 October 2017, 07:01 PM
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Just another example of rampant voter fraud.
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  #5  
Old 03 October 2017, 07:27 PM
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To be fair (somewhat) they've updated the story to say that it was an apparent database error in transferring some records, rather than a mistake on the part of Kushner.

However, Kushner apparently hadn't noticed or corrected it for eight years or so... and as jimmy101 said, I bet this is exactly the kind of inconsistency that Trump would claim as evidence of "voter fraud" if it had happened to anybody else.
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Old 03 October 2017, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by erwins View Post
That article also led me to this somewhat amusing article https://www.wired.com/story/trump-wo...on-wish-lists/ on Trump inner-circle/former inner-circle Amazon wish lists. Spoiler alert: no one will actually cop to the wish list belonging to him, even when it almost certainly does.
Although a couple of the lists have potentially amusing items on them, for me the actual story there is how terrible Amazon is at data protection.

I'm pretty sure that generating that information (without the subject's knowledge, necessarily) and making it publicly available would be illegal under European (and also under separate UK) data protection laws. It's certainly not a good thing, and not something that most Amazon users would realise is happening - see the jokey references to "hacking" from some of the people questioned.

Nobody ever seems to bother to enforce those laws these days, though. (That's if it happens in the UK - just off to look at my own account. (eta) Apparently I've managed to avoid adding anything to my wish list unintentionally). Maybe there are worse things happening to worry about. We certainly don't seem to have the funds to give to some more important things...
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Old 03 October 2017, 07:55 PM
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Or, somebody(ies) didn't make their wish list(s) private.

ETA: European and UK laws are irrelevant, of course, since these people live and presumably created these wishlists in the US. Maybe public wishlists would be illegal there. But they are not illegal in the US. And if people don't know their Wish Lists are set to Public, it isn't because Amazon is hiding the fact.

Last edited by Lainie; 03 October 2017 at 08:01 PM.
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Old 03 October 2017, 07:56 PM
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The lists can be made private or shared, which would prevent them from being visible to the general public as happened here. A very quick reading of the act would indicate that that ability would satisfy part 10 and 11 of section II. The rest of the act is more complicated since the basic purpose of the data in wish lists is the dissemination of it to other parties. And the lists are generated by actions (potentially erroneous ones) by the user, it is not collected by Amazon in the way I understand the definition to be. There might be an issue with security or notification rules if Amazon didn't clearly state that the default wish list would be available to others.

ETA: How do the UK rules handle Facebook and the like? Because the default wish list is similar to a Facebook post in that it is supposed to be shared. People may not be aware of how widely, but in each case the person themselves did an action to share the data, it wasn't collected behind the scenes.
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Old 03 October 2017, 08:06 PM
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Is it possible to create a Wish List accidentally? I can't test it adequately, because I already have lists I created (and chose appropriate privacy settings for).

I can see how one might accidentally add an item to an existing list. But when you're asked to name a newly-created list, you are also provided with the privacy options.
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Old 03 October 2017, 08:26 PM
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I think a newly created Amazon account already has a default public wish list created. That may be the sticking point with regards to the UK regulations, the fact that it defaults to public.
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  #11  
Old 04 October 2017, 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
Or, somebody(ies) didn't make their wish list(s) private.
Apologies for my hijack; I didn't realise it would be such a hijack.

Regardless of laws (and I think the ones in Europe and the UK are good on this matter), why doesn't it bother you that this information is suddenly available and public? Why do you think you have to deliberately choose to make it private? How are people supposed to know that?

If this was about your own shopping habits, would you consider it reasonable for somebody to follow you constantly around the shops, noting every book you picked up and every item you considered, and then to write a newspaper article using that information to poke fun at you? It would be considered stalking in physical reality, and there are laws against that even in the USA. Whether it's illegal or not, it doesn't seem to me to be a good thing.

And yet suddenly everybody's blasé about it when it comes to digital information. I don't get why that's the case.

(eta)
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Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
That may be the sticking point with regards to the UK regulations, the fact that it defaults to public.
Yes, I think that's correct. Third parties aren't supposed to be able to use information that the party collecting that information has gathered, without explicit permission from the person whose data it is. Making the information public by default would breach that - and I don't know whether Amazon do this on their UK site.

But I don't understand why anybody would even want it to default to public. Surely you'd want control over who saw your wishlist? Giving people explicit permission to see it is fine - but why would you want the general public to be able to see it? It's not some sort of aspirational thing, surely?

(eta again) As far as Facebook is concerned, GenYus, I've never been able to understand how some of the things it does are legal under the Data Protection Act. I think it's basically because it has a disclaimer in its TOCs that means you've already agreed to everything it does in order to use it in the first place, and therefore it's OK because you've "opted in". That seems a bit of a weaselly way to dodge the issue, to me, though. Certainly it does many things that were considered to be unacceptable at the time our data protection laws were first passed.

Last edited by Richard W; 04 October 2017 at 12:44 AM.
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  #12  
Old 04 October 2017, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard W View Post
Apologies for my hijack; I didn't realise it would be such a hijack.

Regardless of laws (and I think the ones in Europe and the UK are good on this matter), why doesn't it bother you that this information is suddenly available and public?
"Is suddenly"? What does that even mean? What evidence do you have that it hasn't been available all along?

Quote:
Why do you think you have to deliberately choose to make it private?
Because that's the way the software is built. I've used it.

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How are people supposed to know that?
Because on the popup screen where you name a new list, right next to the Name field, is the field with the privacy setting. The default value in that field is public.

Quote:
If this was about your own shopping habits, would you consider it reasonable for somebody to follow you constantly around the shops, noting every book you picked up and every item you considered, and then to write a newspaper article using that information to poke fun at you?
No, but nobody did that here.

Quote:
And yet suddenly everybody's blasé about it when it comes to digital information. I don't get why that's the case.
There's that word "suddenly" again. There's nothing "sudden" about my position on this. And I don't hold that position because the data is digital, I hold it because the software 1) allows people to choose their own privacy setting, 2) makes it clear what the default setting is and 3) makes it sufficiently clear, IMO, how to change that default value. IIRC, there's also help text you can click on to see what each setting means.

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But I don't understand why anybody would even want it to default to public.
I don't know why it ***is*** the default; you'd have to ask Amazon that. I haven't said that I want it to be the default, and I don't see where anyone else has, either.

Quote:
Surely you'd want control over who saw your wishlist?
I have that control, and so does anyone who creates an Amazon wishlist. That's been explained multiple times.

Quote:
Giving people explicit permission to see it is fine - but why would you want the general public to be able to see it?
How the hell would I know why anyone would want that? If you're asking why it's even an option, again, you'll need to ask Amazon.

ETA: I'm not saying it wasn't a jerk move to write that article. I'm saying that I don't think it's stalking, or over-reach by Amazon. Amazon didn't even collect that data independently, the users saved it themselves.

Last edited by Lainie; 04 October 2017 at 01:15 PM.
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  #13  
Old 04 October 2017, 01:45 PM
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Companies have been sued for not following the regulations for their software in different jurisdictions. Google, Microsoft jump to mind for their resistance to the regulations in Europe.

So, companies must adjust their software for the countries within which they work. Try looking up an Israeli website through Lebanon's Google search. It is blocked. Yet that same website is fully searchable through Canada's Google. Just as some pirate sites are blocked from Google search results in parts of Europe, but fully accessible in the US.

So, I have problems falling on the default "it's the software" answer. Companies know that they have to follow the laws for the country they work in. If Amazon defaults to public, and that is in contravention of the laws of the UK**, then it needs to change.

All this would be different if Amazon was a purely US company, but I don't shop at Amazon.com, I shop at Amazon.ca. I've ordered stuff for a friend at Amazon.nl, and have searched for stuff at Amazon.fr. So, this company is definitely "operating" in other nations.

Also, Jared Kushner stinks.

**I fully expect that Amazon has either determined it to not be a contravention or are pressing the boundary of what is a contravention.
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Old 04 October 2017, 01:56 PM
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To be clear, my comments about how the software works were descriptive, not prescriptive (and I was making them in response to Richard's questions). Since I don't believe anyone here did anything wrong, I don't need to "fall back" on the software or anyone else to excuse anything. Richard asked me how I knew how it worked, so I told him.

I did not suggest that Amazon would be right in using that same functionality in countries where that would violate a law (assuming it would).


In any case, I see no evidence that Amazon or the writers of the article violated US laws, which are the applicable laws in the case we're discussing.

ETA: It occurs to me there may be a misunderstanding of what "default" means in this context. Once the user changes the privacy setting, it remains on the user-selected setting unless/until the user changes it again. It doesn't just flip back to "Public" without the user taking action.
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Old 04 October 2017, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard W View Post
To be fair (somewhat) they've updated the story to say that it was an apparent database error in transferring some records, rather than a mistake on the part of Kushner.

However, Kushner apparently hadn't noticed or corrected it for eight years or so... and as jimmy101 said, I bet this is exactly the kind of inconsistency that Trump would claim as evidence of "voter fraud" if it had happened to anybody else.
When I first moved out of home, about 20 years ago, I first lived in another apartment in my current suburb for about a year before I moved to where I live now. For several years, when I would go to vote and lined up to have my named marked of the electrical roll, I would think "I have changed my address didn't I? Yes I did change my address...did I". And this was before I had the problems with my memory that I have now. The thing was my current address and my last address were pretty similar. Same unit number, similar street number (109 as opposed to 119 for example) and similar street names (both named for English counties starting with the same letter) and I was thinking "Maybe I wasn't listening properly last time." I had but I can get how it could happen.

But still for a party who has that has made such a big deal about voter fraud you would think they would ensure every I was dotted and every t was crossed. But of course they were only worried about fraud from certain kind of people.
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Old 04 October 2017, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
To be clear, my comments about how the software works were descriptive, not prescriptive (and I was making them in response to Richard's questions). Since I don't believe anyone here did anything wrong, I don't need to "fall back" on the software or anyone else to excuse anything. Richard asked me how I knew how it worked, so I told him.
OK. Thanks for clearing that up. Your response to me looked like a case of "that's how the software was built so that is how you have to use it" but I may have been reading something into it.
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Old 04 October 2017, 05:45 PM
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Maybe I misunderstood the questions Richard was trying to ask. I thought he meant "how do you know it works that way?" but maybe he meant "Why do you think they did it that way?"

Of course, I can't answer that second question. Is there some advantage to Amazon in making the list public? Not that I can see -- Amazon tracks what you've browsed whether you ever add the items to a list or not. But I'm just guessing.
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Old 04 October 2017, 06:49 PM
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On the thread subject drift to websites not being accessible from other countries, I went round and round with Kohl's website folks, complaining that I could not reach it from Kuwait. I knew in the past, we had ordered from Kohl's when we lived in Morocco and perhaps as late as 2013, we could get to it from Kuwait.

. Anyway, they appeared to have no idea that I was having problems and suggested it was on my end, blaming my equipment. Before I finally gave up, I had made a trip back to the United States, in mid-21205 and access with my laptop from the hotel in Annapolis worked fine, the wi-fi in London Heathrow worked fine, but the next day, when I got back to Kuwait, still no site access.

We did a tracert on their URL and determined the Kohl's website was hosted by some organization which appeared to be in Ashland, VA.

Even sent Kohl's the tracert image of the path used.

I gathered they simply didn't bother to contact their website hosting company and ask them to address the issue. Even mentioned there were thousands of US citizens associated with the US government living in Kuwait and pretty good size audience to ignore. They did.


Access Denied

You don't have permission to access "http://www.kohls.com/sale-event/clearance.jsp?" on this server.
Reference #18.1c111cb8.1429712350.2a63d59b
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  #19  
Old 04 October 2017, 06:50 PM
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I would guess that it is made public by default because that way is easier for other people to buy you things from your list. All you have to do is give them a link (or have them search for your name). Making it limited by default would mean they'd have to create an account if they didn't have one, then you'd have to link your account to theirs so Amazon knew it was okay to show them the list. While it is hardly a difficult process, even a 1% drop in sales because of that could result in losses of tens of millions of dollars*.

* Amazon's Q4 revenue is around $10 billion more than the other three quarters, presumably because of Christmas sales. Assuming 1/4 of those are off gift lists would be $2.5 billion and 1% of that would be $25 million. Which leaves off birthday or other gift giving occasions.
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