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  #221  
Old 06 January 2018, 02:39 AM
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thorny locust thorny locust is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Psihala View Post
An arson investigation is underway after the Alabama home of one of the women who accused former GOP Senate candidate Roy Moore of inappropriate behavior burned down, according to a report in AL.com.
Sorry for double post (if it is one by the time I post it), but I almost missed this bit in the middle of the other discussion:

According to that article:

Quote:
Johnson and her neighbor Kevin Tallant told AL.com that other neighbors saw a young man who has a history of intoxication walking around the house at the time of the fire, and local authorities said they are speaking with a suspect.

"The ongoing investigation does not lead us to believe that the fire is in any way related to Roy Moore or allegations made against him," the Etowah County Sheriff's Office said in a statement.
-- pending further investigation, of course; but it seems possible that this specific problem isn't among those caused by Moore.
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  #222  
Old 06 January 2018, 02:50 AM
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ASL ASL is offline
 
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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
It's entirely clear to me that religious identifications have meaning to the people who are religious.
Yep. And when religious group A and religious group B both insist they are X, I will happily refer to them both as X and if they have a problem with that, I'll invite them to settle it between themselves and leave me out of it: I'm not going to favor either group's religious position over the other.
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And bear in mind, please, that the Messianic Jews are returning the favor. They're saying, quite clearly (did you ever go check out that web page?) that the only way to God is through Jesus.
I don't see how that's any better or worse than what many mainstream religions claim. See Catholics vs Protestants. Or even just Protestants vs. Protestants. For my part, I appreciate the internal consistency of the Puritans' view of salvation through election (you can be saved by god's grace alone and nothing else, no amount of faith or good deeds will change his unflinching will to save some but not others) though of course I think it's all baloney. The Puritans' just seems the most consistent with the narcissistic psychopath that is the god of the bible.

If you're leaving it up to me to call religions and religious people by how repugnant or ridiculous I think their views are, you're not going to like the result. So, in polite company, I'll stick to the label they have chosen for themselves, not what I have chosen or what someone else has chosen for them.

Again, you're free to do as you will.
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  #223  
Old 06 January 2018, 09:00 AM
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Lainie Lainie is offline
 
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Sure, it's why the pseudo-Christian moron label is out there. A label I reject for the same reason I am willing to label messianic Jews as Jewish.
OK. I have no idea what your point is here, or why you quoted 1) not my original suggestion of individual ignorance; 2) not jimmy_101's suggestion that such ignorance was common; but 3) my casual statement of concurrence with #2.

ETA: And again, I am not arguing with your position regarding the validity of these labels. I simply disagree with it. I have explained, multiple times, why I think Moore's terms matter in the context of her statement and of her husband's stated positions regarding non-Christians. I'm not responsible for defending reasoning I am not using.

Most of the posts I have made within the last 24 hours were in response to UEL's statement that MJs do not embrace the tenets of Christianity, a statement for which he provided no evidence, which I found ridiculous on its face, and which TL and I have thoroughly debunked, with cites.

Last edited by Lainie; 06 January 2018 at 09:07 AM.
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  #224  
Old 06 January 2018, 09:12 AM
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Lainie Lainie is offline
 
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Originally Posted by ASL;1968513[/quote
I don't see how that's any better or worse than what many mainstream religions claim.
TL didn't claim it was. She said MJs were doing it "in return."

ETA:

Also, you may not care about the religious judgments being made when religious people describe themselves and each other, but if you want to have a meaningful historical or sociological discussion about the groups in question, you will need to recognize/consider/discuss those judgments, their sources, their affects, etc. That is the nature of the argument I have been making about Kayla Moore's use of the term "Jews."
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  #225  
Old 06 January 2018, 03:06 PM
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thorny locust thorny locust is offline
 
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I don't see how that's any better or worse than what many mainstream religions claim.
Who said that it was?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASL View Post
If you're leaving it up to me to call religions and religious people by how repugnant or ridiculous I think their views are, you're not going to like the result.
That's not in the least what we were talking about. Your opinion of whether the beliefs of Jews and/or Christians are absurd has nothing whatsoever to do with the question of whether a particular person is a Jew or a Christian.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ASL View Post
Yep. And when religious group A and religious group B both insist they are X, I will happily refer to them both as X and if they have a problem with that, I'll invite them to settle it between themselves and leave me out of it [ . . . ]

So, in polite company, I'll stick to the label they have chosen for themselves, not what I have chosen or what someone else has chosen for them.

Again, you're free to do as you will.
So you're going to consider it perfectly OK to hold up a person as a representative example of a group, even if that person a) violates the central tenets of that group and b) is considered by most other members of that group not to be a member of it.

You are of course also free to do that as you will. Let me refer you to a part of my post that you didn't quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
And I'm entirely entitled to conclude that I'm going to have to consider anything you say about religious groups to be nonsense, because you don't agree that words in this area have any meaning; and so your words in this area must not have any meaning.
-- And, while we're at it, what Lainie said.
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  #226  
Old 06 January 2018, 05:29 PM
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ASL ASL is offline
 
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Thanks for all the fish.
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  #227  
Old 06 January 2018, 11:34 PM
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Please note that I specifically said in this area!

I didn't mean in general.
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  #228  
Old 07 January 2018, 10:55 PM
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Choosing to call someone what they prefer to be called does not in any way preclude having an opinion about whether they actually are that thing.

I may choose to refer to the "pro-life movement" by their name of choice. That does not mean that I have to accept, or am accepting, the premise that their beliefs are generally supportive of life.
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