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  #21  
Old 27 November 2017, 02:22 PM
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ChasFink ChasFink is offline
 
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Read This!

Did either of the wills include the phrase "being of sound mind"? They could throw that one out right away.
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  #22  
Old 04 December 2017, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Seaboe Muffinchucker View Post
Oh, I recall that, too. A lot of the authors note that while he was personally conservative, he was more than willing to take advantage of those liberal ideas (such as free love and communes) that benefited him.

Let's face it. Manson didn't perceive people as human beings deserving of life, liberty & the pursuit of happiness, he perceived them as objects to be manipulated into serving his desires.

Seaboe
I think that, like most cult leaders and other chronic manipulators, he simply had a natural talent at seeking out those who were easiest to exploit. This category tends to belong to the disenfranchised: minorities, women, vagrants, the mentally ill, drug users and those with extreme political views. During his time, his primary hunting ground would have contained more than the standard-population amount of the kind of people who would have been dismissed as 'hippies'.

What has always fascinated me about people like him is that he, and others like him, were not very intelligent.

It's easy to assume that manipulation is a kind of intelligence, but for some people it seems to have been more of an inherent charm. How can a below-average intelligence bigot without any kind of original ideas have been so charming, though? How is it that some people seem to have a kind of charisma without the likeability factor? Terry Pratchett called it "charisn'tma": where somebody is so awful they attract people in a kind of horrified fascination. But even that suggests that the followers know there is something wrong with the person they are following.

Nigel Farage has this quality, too. And Trump, come to think of it. No real charisma, no charm, no bright spark of intellect, no wit, no new ideas, no overpowering physical presence - but all the 'follow me' power of a loaded missile.
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  #23  
Old 04 December 2017, 02:14 PM
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thorny locust thorny locust is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Blatherskite View Post
Nigel Farage has this quality, too. And Trump, come to think of it. No real charisma, no charm, no bright spark of intellect, no wit, no new ideas, no overpowering physical presence - but all the 'follow me' power of a loaded missile.
I always thought that's what charisma is, though.

That is: some people have charisma combined with ordinary charm (which can at least partly be taught), and/or intellect, and/or wit, and/or ideas, and/or physical presence. And many people have one or more or even all of the other qualities, but don't have charisma. But some people just have the charisma -- the 'follow-me power'. Why is a good question; but it does seem to me to be something separate from any logically good reason to follow anybody.
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  #24  
Old 04 December 2017, 06:17 PM
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E. Q. Taft E. Q. Taft is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Blatherskite View Post
What has always fascinated me about people like him is that he, and others like him, were not very intelligent.

It's easy to assume that manipulation is a kind of intelligence, but for some people it seems to have been more of an inherent charm. How can a below-average intelligence bigot without any kind of original ideas have been so charming, though?
Manson was hardly a genius, and his education was sketchy, but he wasn't "below average." His IQ was tested when he was institutionalized as a youth, and I believe it was 109. In other tests, he scored particularly high in "word meaning."

In any case, it's an extreme example of how hard it is to quantify anything as vaguely defined as "intelligence." The kind of intelligence needed to understand nuclear physics is different from the kind that makes someone a brilliant salesman (though some people of course can be good at both). And intelligence in practical matters isn't necessarily the same as a good grasp of theory. Manson could be an extremely clever manipulator while still somehow believing that the Beatles were slipping messages to him in their song lyrics, or that he could start a race war by committing murders, despite the obvious flaws in both theories.
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