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  #1  
Old 06 July 2018, 10:13 PM
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United States This Tweet Captures the State of Health Care in America Today

A nightmarish accident on a Boston subway platform on Friday — described in gory detail by a local reporter, Maria Cramer, as it unfolded and quickly retweeted by thousands — is one you might expect to see in an impoverished country.

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Awful scene on the orange line. A woman’s leg got stuck in the gap between the train and the platform. It was twisted and bloody. Skin came off. She’s in agony and weeping. Just as upsetting she begged no one call an ambulance. “It’s $3000,” she wailed. “I can’t afford that.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/02/o...alth-care.html
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  #2  
Old 06 July 2018, 11:54 PM
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The reaction I had was thinking how bad it is that some people are in situations where the fear of huge medical costs is so ingrained in their brains that even while in horrible pain and bleeding everywhere, they still think of the costs first.

What a country.
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Old 07 July 2018, 12:03 AM
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It just boggles my mind that there are still Americans who don't seem to get that there are countries that spend less per capita on health care and still cover everyone.

I don't know if they just refuse to believe it, or that they just don't believe we can do it here for some reason. Or if it's just the knee-jerk fear of the government having too much control over it, when they don't seem to mind at all leaving the control in the hands of for-profit corporations.
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Old 07 July 2018, 12:12 AM
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I don't think that's the issue for those that are against covering everyone. Their issue (whether they really believe it or say so for political purposes) is that health care under those systems is so much worse. IOW, they would say that there is less spending per capita because everyone is just getting less health care.
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Old 07 July 2018, 12:23 AM
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My reaction was... this reads like a friend of a friend story? But there’s a picture.
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Old 07 July 2018, 12:24 AM
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Alas, it isn't.

ETA: But I'm sure you knew that.
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Old 07 July 2018, 03:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
I don't think that's the issue for those that are against covering everyone. Their issue (whether they really believe it or say so for political purposes) is that health care under those systems is so much worse. IOW, they would say that there is less spending per capita because everyone is just getting less health care.
Also, something something Communists!
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Old 07 July 2018, 03:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E. Q. Taft View Post
It just boggles my mind that there are still Americans who don't seem to get that there are countries that spend less per capita on health care and still cover everyone.

I don't know if they just refuse to believe it, or that they just don't believe we can do it here for some reason. Or if it's just the knee-jerk fear of the government having too much control over it, when they don't seem to mind at all leaving the control in the hands of for-profit corporations.
Sometimes I think it’s because it would benefit the poor. Even though Universal Healthcare would benefit everyone, including them, if it benefits the poor, a good chunk of the population would opt to cut off their nose to spite their face. Though also feel free to substitute “PoC” for my previous mentions of “the poor,” because there’s a good chunk who would be of that mindset.
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Old 07 July 2018, 04:04 AM
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Well, the overlap of the Venn Diagram of Poor and PoC in the US is pretty big.
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Old 07 July 2018, 06:32 AM
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Sometimes I think it’s because it would benefit the poor. Even though Universal Healthcare would benefit everyone, including them, if it benefits the poor, a good chunk of the population would opt to cut off their nose to spite their face.
Why do you think that?
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Old 07 July 2018, 06:37 AM
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Because a lot of conservatives buy into the idea of welfare queens.
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Old 07 July 2018, 08:05 AM
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Are all poor people welfare queens or would-be welfare queens in most conservatives' eyes?
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Old 07 July 2018, 08:08 AM
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I got this from one acquaintance: "Why should *I* have to pay for health care for people who can't afford it?" I tried to explain: You are paying for it. If that woman in the story is taken to a hospital, where she will be treated, and defaults on the bill...who pays that? We all do. The hospital passes that cost on to other customers. It shows up as higher medical bills, higher insurance rates, higher taxes, and higher interest rates. You aren't actually given a bill saying "other people's medical costs," but it's there...only since it's so spread out, you're paying it less efficiently, and it winds up costing you more...probably much more, if you're a middle-income person.

No impact on these people. They're the ones who just plain rejected all the budget projections showing that the Affordable Care Act would actually lower the deficit in the long run.

*Sigh* I miss 2008-2009. I thought maybe, just maybe, we were going to stay moving in the right direction for a little while.
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Old 07 July 2018, 08:11 AM
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That reads like an anecdote. I wonder if that’s what most people opposed to universal healthcare actually think, though.
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Old 07 July 2018, 11:09 AM
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ASL, are you opposed to it? and would you be willing to explain why, if so?
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Old 07 July 2018, 05:15 PM
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I want to ask people opposed to healthcare for the poor, if the poor should just be allowed to die?
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Old 07 July 2018, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
ASL, are you opposed to it? and would you be willing to explain why, if so?
Why do I have to be for or against something to question the assertions of its advocates, particularly when they paint a very large group with a broad (and nasty-smelling) brush? cf. our recent conversation about talking with people we "disagree with on the most fundamental levels." Sometimes it can be hard enough just to talk with people on this forum who we don’t fundamentally disagree with, but who make bold-faced assertions about what other people must surely thing that are not befitting a forum that prides itself on skepticism. IMHO.

Do you think anyone who does seriously oppose universal healthcare on other grounds (non-racist, non-classist grounds) is going to want to wade into the conversation and explain their actual views with the well already poisoned against them?

I can certainly play devil's advocate, but why should I?
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Old 07 July 2018, 08:02 PM
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Basically, I think the reason people who already have some kind of insurance oppose it is a feeling that it will end up costing them more for care that won't be as good, or will be harder to access, and give them less personal choice. And of course it could happen that way if it's done poorly, but it certainly doesn't have to be.
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Old 07 July 2018, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
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I want to ask people opposed to healthcare for the poor, if the poor should just be allowed to die?
I know people who believe that.
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  #20  
Old 07 July 2018, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
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Why do I have to be for or against something to question the assertions of its advocates, particularly when they paint a very large group with a broad (and nasty-smelling) brush?
You don't, of course. That's why I asked, instead of assuming.

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cf. our recent conversation about talking with people we "disagree with on the most fundamental levels."
I've been meaning to come back to that one; but have been having trouble finding the time while I've got concentration available to get it worded properly. I might still do it sometime.

It seemed to me that there was more than one conversation going on in that thread, and I was finding at least one of them useful. I hope that I wasn't the only one who was so finding it.

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Originally Posted by ASL View Post
Do you think anyone who does seriously oppose universal healthcare on other grounds (non-racist, non-classist grounds) is going to want to wade into the conversation and explain their actual views with the well already poisoned against them?
I can understand why someone wouldn't want to, and of course nobody's required to. But I think it might be very useful to the conversation if some such person did.

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Originally Posted by ASL View Post
I can certainly play devil's advocate, but why should I?
Because of the possibility that there may be people reading the thread who genuinely want to understand the arguments?

It's hard to convince people that there actually are good arguments for a stance by not producing any.

Again, though, it's entirely optional. We've all got limited amounts of energy and time, and nobody's required to try to explain the entire human universe to everybody else in it. But I think that assuming that everyone reading the thread only wants to snarl at those who disagree with them is rather a broad brush in itself.
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