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  #21  
Old 17 July 2018, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by erwins View Post
I was surprised by the variety of techniques and equipment they used to get them out.

And while they were planning and setting up the rescue they did use, they still had people searching for cracks on the surface to try to find an easier way to do it.
Yes. And they might well, in the same frame of mind, have told Musk to go ahead and keep working on the sub, in case he could come up with something that might work.

But that doesn't mean that what he actually delivered was something that could work, any more than their hunting for an alternate passage meant that they'd find one. They actually did find one, IIRC, but it came out in the wrong place, too far from the boys to be any help. Once they realized it didn't go anywhere useful for the purpose, they didn't keep trying to use it; and once they realized that the sub as delivered couldn't work, they weren't going to try to use it, either.


(Alarm, there isn't any need to hold my breath here in my office, either . . . )
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  #22  
Old 17 July 2018, 03:51 PM
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My point was not that it was useable for the route they took. Clearly not. But people were saying he did this without consulting with or getting encouragement from the expert rescuers on scene. That was apparently not true.

And my other point was that there was a lot of doubt initially that they would be able to get them out via the same way the rescuers got to them. Cave diving is extremely difficult, even for highly experienced scuba divers. The idea of taking children who could not swim and putting scuba gear on them and getting them through a very difficult and gruelling cave dive was almost as ridiculous as that sub. That why initially, they said they might have to stay where they were for months until rainy season was over.

Musk is still a jerk and full of himself and should delete his Twitter account. But I'm not sure it's fair to fault him for trying to do something in case it would be helpful. He should have shut up about it when it became clear it would not be.
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  #23  
Old 17 July 2018, 04:25 PM
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I don't think anyone is trying to fault him for trying to be helpful; at least, not on this thread.

I think people are faulting him a) for insisting that the sub would have worked to get the boys out when it actually wouldn't and b) for throwing a libelous snit fit at people who said that it wouldn't work for the specific purpose.

'I want to help!' is a good thing. 'I'm willing to put time and money into trying to build something that will help!' is an even better thing. 'I'm going to insist that I succeeded in making something that would have helped even though I didn't!' is not a good thing. 'I'm going to say terrible things, without any evidence for them, about anyone who objects to my claims that it would have worked!' is a very bad thing.
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  #24  
Old 17 July 2018, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
Let's also remember that this cave had multiple, extremely narrow passages where there was a concern that the boys themselves wouldn't fit through, so a rigid device that was a lot longer and wider than they were would have had far more issues. And also that Elon did not talk to anyone on-site to try to coordinate with them or see what actual resources they needed.
These criticisms, which multiple people have agreed with, don't fit in either a) or b). And one of the criticisms is false.

I have no problem with a) and b), and fully agree with them.
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  #25  
Old 17 July 2018, 06:27 PM
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Why doesn't the first of those fit?

It's not a criticism in itself; it just points out why the thing wouldn't work, despite Musk's insisting that it would have. If it would have worked, there would be nothing wrong with his saying so. It's because it wouldn't that he shouldn't be saying so.

The second one does appear to be false. But it's still not a criticism of Musk for trying to help; it's a criticism of him for not consulting as to what help was needed, which, although false, is not the same thing as criticizing him for trying to help.
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  #26  
Old 17 July 2018, 08:10 PM
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I think we're reading things differently in what may be subtle ways. (E.g., I did not say he was being criticized for "trying to help.") But I don't want to have one of those meanings of words kind of debates, especially on behalf of that guy. I'll just say that I think there's ample criticism to heap on him for the two points you listed, which I fully agree with.
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  #27  
Old 17 July 2018, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by erwins View Post
I think we're reading things differently in what may be subtle ways. (E.g., I did not say he was being criticized for "trying to help.") But I don't want to have one of those meanings of words kind of debates
OK, I won't stubbornly keep on by explaining why I thought you said that, then.



-- thorny -- picking nits since the 1950's -- locust
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  #28  
Old 17 July 2018, 08:54 PM
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You can if you want to. I didn't mean to set myself up to get the last word -- I actually took out my main response because if I say I don't want to have that kind of debates, then it isn't fair to have my say, followed by "and now this debate is over." You should definitely respond if you want to. It could be edifying to see what was unclear.
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  #29  
Old 18 July 2018, 01:08 AM
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Ignoring whether his plan would have succeeded for the moment...

I think it's unfair to say that Musk's offer of help was just a PR stunt, but at the same time I think his response afterwards demonstrates that it wasn't just about wanting to help either.

If he had just cared about the well-being of the trapped children he would have been disappointed that he couldn't help, naturally, but relieved all the same that the rescue was successful without him. But I think if it was a simple PR stunt he wouldn't have been so upset by the criticism that he dug himself deeper, scorched his own earth and then shot himself in the foot for good measure. Devious, duplicitous businessmen tend to know that they're devious, duplicitous businessmen. In my experience, when things go wrong for them they usually try to keep their heads down until it all blows over and they can move on to the next stunt.

It looks very much to me like the actions of somebody who just wanted to be a hero. Regardless of his ulterior motives or lack of them, I think being the hero meant more to him than the eventual rescue. This is why he retaliated the way he did... because those who stop the hero from performing their feats of heroism must, after all, be the villains. For one of the rescuers to be a villain, Musk had to assume there was something untoward about him, something that everybody would agree is an evil trait. That would make him, Musk, the hero again - albeit the hero thwarted.

I know I'm assuming a lot, but it wouldn't be the first time a technically intelligent person has thought like a child.
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  #30  
Old 18 July 2018, 01:11 AM
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I think maybe I am running this thing into the ground, though; and quite possibly I should leave it alone. But, just in case it clarifies, what I took to mean 'criticizing him for trying to help' was this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by erwins View Post
I'm not sure it's fair to fault him for trying to do something in case it would be helpful.
And I agree with you that faulting Musk for that wouldn't be fair; I just don't think that's what people were doing.
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  #31  
Old 18 July 2018, 01:26 AM
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I meant something subtly different from "criticizing him for trying to help."

I agree that he was not being criticized for trying to help. But he was being criticized for trying to do a particular thing -- building a tiny submarine -- in case it could help. The criticism was because in retrospect that particular thing wouldn't have worked for the particular way the kids were rescued. I don't think when he started that it was known how the kids would be rescued.

He is also an idiot for insisting now that it would have worked. I look forward to the video of someone trying to get it through that route. I assume it will be posted promptly, as Elon Musk has a self-effacing hearty laugh at himself.

Last edited by erwins; 18 July 2018 at 01:32 AM.
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  #32  
Old 18 July 2018, 01:28 PM
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Elon Musk made a qualified apology Wednesday for calling one of the rescuers of a youth soccer team from a Thai cave a “pedo” — but the Tesla CEO still managed to take a swipe at the media.

The billionaire said his slur — posted on Twitter where he has 22 million followers — was made “in anger” following criticism of his mini-submarine rescue idea.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/e...r-pedo-n892296
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  #33  
Old 18 July 2018, 03:47 PM
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From the linked article:

Quote:
Musk’s apology was not posted publicly on his feed but came in a reply to another user who declared “journalism is dead” and linked to an opinion article on crowd-source site, Quora, taking aim at the “criticism machine” and “shoddy journalism" surrounding Musk's remarks.
~Psihala
(*Classy as never, Elon.)
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  #34  
Old 18 July 2018, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwins View Post
I meant something subtly different from "criticizing him for trying to help."
Thanks for explanation; I think I now see how you meant it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erwins View Post
he was being criticized for trying to do a particular thing -- building a tiny submarine -- in case it could help.
I think there again we were indeed reading things subtly differently. I didn't think he was being criticized for building the submarine, but only for insisting it would be likely to work after it was clear that it wouldn't. That's how I meant it, anyway -- I can't obviously speak for everybody else.

The sub he did get built might be useful in some other rescue situation entirely; that I don't know. If so, it was certainly worth building.
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  #35  
Old 18 July 2018, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psihala View Post
(*Classy as never, Elon.)
I do give him a point for not doing a non-apology.

Then take it back again for leading into the apology with a "he started it!".
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  #36  
Old 18 July 2018, 05:12 PM
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And he said that "stick his submarine where it hurts" was a suggestion that he "engage in a sexual act with the mini-sub". How very literal! I have never taken the stick-it-where-the-Sun-don't-shine seniment as being sexual, only painful. I wonder if Musk takes every "F*** you" comment directed at him as a come-on.
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  #37  
Old 05 September 2018, 10:39 AM
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Default Elon Musk calls Thailand diver 'child rapist' in latest baseless attack

He's still at it:

https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...thout-evidence

Never mind his previous public comments to the effect of "if it wasn't true, why hasn't he sued me?" which didn't make it to this thread. This time it was in an email to a reporter that Musk had tried to single-handedly declare was "off the record":

Quote:
Musk’s email to BuzzFeed, which was a response to Unsworth’s latest legal threats, said: “I suggest that you call people you know in Thailand, find out what’s actually going on and stop defending child rapists, you ****ing asshole … As for this alleged threat of a lawsuit, which magically appeared when I raised the issue (nothing was sent or raised beforehand), I ****ing hope he sues me.”
(Musk basically seems to think that everybody who visits or lives in Thailand as an immigrant is a paedophile because he can't think of any other reason to go there. Frankly I think there's scope for a wider lawsuit there!)

I've also read lately that Musk has been working 120-hour weeks (constant 17-hour days) and not leaving his office for days at a time. It definitely sounds like he needs a break. Maybe he could use one twentieth of his net worth to hire, say, another ten executives at ten million dollars a year each for the next ten years. You'd probably be able to get some good people for ten million dollars a year, and it would take the strain off. I'm sure he could find a way to put that small fraction of his worth into a form that would pay for it, even assuming he spends the capital rather than using it to generate an income.
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  #38  
Old 05 September 2018, 07:43 PM
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I don't want to contribute to the idea that mental illness explains jerkdom, and I fully believe Musk to be a garden-variety jerk no matter what else he's got going on, but working 17-hour days when you don't have to has a whiff of mania. Is anyone in his life in a position to point out to him that he doesn't seem well?
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  #39  
Old 05 September 2018, 09:23 PM
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I would think it very likely that he's in a state of chronic extreme sleep deprivation, which can cause quite a bit of mental disturbance on its own.
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  #40  
Old 05 September 2018, 10:41 PM
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I can vouch for that.
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