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  #61  
Old 20 September 2018, 05:34 AM
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ganzfeld ganzfeld is offline
 
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Originally Posted by damian View Post
But she has a blond pony tail.
I don't think it's blonde but it certainly doesn't look (and she doesn't look) anything like that cartoon.
Quote:
(Isn't that cultural appropriation?)
Huh? What culture do you think she's from anyway??

I didn't think her tantrum was really that different from what quite often goes on in tennis. Maybe people don't like it but it's part of tennis and has been since at least I was a very small child. It's the first time I've heard everyone get all up in arms about it. Making racist, sexist cartoons about it. Never seen that before. Yes, I do think it's because she's a black woman because I've seen it hundreds of times. People just want black women to be quiet and sit at the back or something. (2018 but it feels like 1958 still.)
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  #62  
Old 20 September 2018, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
I don't think it's blonde but it certainly doesn't look (and she doesn't look) anything like that cartoon.
I went back and checked the cartoon against a photo of Osaka from the tournament:


She has sliiiightly browner skin that the 'Poor Innocent Man' in the umpire's chair and if you look really carefully the hair on top of her head is slightly darker than the ponytail but it's still an obvious effort to downplay her racial features in contrast to the caricature of Williams which really accentuated her racial features.

Note that the artist also made umpire Carlos Ramos' skin much much lighter and pinker than it is in real life:
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  #63  
Old 20 September 2018, 08:44 AM
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Another thing it completely misrepresents in a way that I think reflects badly is the idea that Osaka was unhappy with Williams or what was going on. In fact, she has said in interviews, she turned away and concentrated on her own tennis and didn't really even know what quite what was happening until afterwards.
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  #64  
Old 20 September 2018, 08:52 AM
Jusenkyo no Pikachu Jusenkyo no Pikachu is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Sylvanz View Post
Not a tennis watcher what did she do? Anything worse then McEnroe did in his time?
Video of highlights.
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  #65  
Old 20 September 2018, 09:57 AM
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That's not helpful to someone who doesn't watch tennis.

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Originally Posted by Sylvanz View Post
Not a tennis watcher what did she do? Anything worse then McEnroe did in his time?
The answer is, without a doubt, (and McEnnroe himself has said several times) no. Not by a long shot.
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  #66  
Old 20 September 2018, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by damian View Post
But she has a blond pony tail. (Isn't that cultural appropriation?)
Only if you're deliberately misrepresenting what cultural appropriation is in order to, I assume, make an out-of-nowhere attack against people who criticise cultural appropriation.

Or do you genuinely believe blonde hair is specific to a culture?
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  #67  
Old 20 September 2018, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Blatherskite View Post
Only if you're deliberately misrepresenting what cultural appropriation is in order to, I assume, make an out-of-nowhere attack against people who criticise cultural appropriation.

Or do you genuinely believe blonde hair is specific to a culture?
we can also ask "Or do you believe that pony-tails belong to a single culture?"

Also, My post about the character at the Emmys wasn't to make a point about whiteface/black face so much as to make a point that the person was dressed up as a "character" who wears whiteface on a show.

In no way is someone dressing up as someone mocking someone the same as someone dressing up as a character in whiteface for reasons contrived by a TV show's plot.

The first one implies you support someone's dubious opinions.
the second one implies you think you're funny because you think some writer's dubiously funny ideas are hilarious.

Not saying either are right, just saying the first one implies more choice on the part of the person wearing the "colourface"
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  #68  
Old 20 September 2018, 12:44 PM
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Blackface is blackface because of a very long and shameful history of blackface. There's no such history of and no such thing as "whiteface".
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  #69  
Old 20 September 2018, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damian View Post
And the uproar over a cartoon is simply a distraction from Serena Williams' disgraceful tantrum. It's the same as trump changing the narrative over kneeling during the national anthem.
Except for the part where its, you know, completely different.

Serena did behave poorly and she was punished by her sport's designated authority.
Kaepernick did not behave poorly and he was effectively blackballed by his sport.

The cartoon is actually racist and should be talked about.
The "dishonoring the troops" line is hogwash (many troops say so) and is merely being used as a bloody shirt.
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  #70  
Old 21 September 2018, 03:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
There's no such history of and no such thing as "whiteface".
Sure there is. I posted a Wikipedia link earlier in the thread and also listed some noted examples.

Note that it's not the equivalent of blackface because the context (and usually the intentions) are extremely different and it's also much much much rarer. Even still, a whole lot of the reader comments after the articles I recently posted about the latest blackface incident in Australia were about whiteface because idiots these days just can't help but jump immediately to whataboutisms.
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  #71  
Old 21 September 2018, 03:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Gutter Monkey View Post
Note that it's not the equivalent of blackface because the context
The context is everything. It isn't just not equivalent, it's simply misleading (wrong) to call those "whiteface". (Just like it would be wrong to call every white person dressing as a person of African descent blackface. Although, unfortunately, it seems so many of them are.) I find it disgusting, for example, that Eddie Murphy's many white characters are listed there as "whiteface". It takes away all meaning of the word blackface and opens the door to this idiotic argument that "it goes both ways". No it doesn't and it never has. Maybe someday next century it will but not yet.

Last edited by ganzfeld; 21 September 2018 at 03:41 AM.
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  #72  
Old 21 September 2018, 03:41 AM
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
it's simply misleading (wrong) to call those "whiteface".
People have commonly called that whiteface for well over a century. If you disagree that's fine but history and the rest of the world apparently disagrees with you. Claiming "there's no such history of and no such thing as "whiteface"" is objectively incorrect regardless of your opinion.
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  #73  
Old 21 September 2018, 03:47 AM
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That article claims from one single use of the word 1895 that it has been used since then. It simply isn't so. There are so many other explanations for that word appearing in print, the most obvious being that it's ironic but the term "whiteface" was also used (and still is, please look it up in the selfsame Oxford) to mean waiting your face white for the stage, as in a mime, etc. It's not even in the same category of performance.
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  #74  
Old 21 September 2018, 04:02 AM
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
That article claims from one single use of the word 1895 that it has been used since then. It simply isn't so.
Citation needed.

If you're still confused (and ignorant) of the history of whiteface performances then maybe try reading some books about it? Maybe start with this one:
https://www.amazon.com/Whiting-White.../dp/0807835080

There's a long long long history of black performers putting on white makeup to mock and ridicule white people and white culture. (Again, that doesn't make it equivalent to blackface performances)
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  #75  
Old 23 September 2018, 07:11 AM
Jusenkyo no Pikachu Jusenkyo no Pikachu is offline
 
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
That's not helpful to someone who doesn't watch tennis.
I’m not big on sports myself.

All I’ve managed to surmise is: her coach coached, she didn’t see but the ump did. She got frustrated enough to break her racquet and got done for yelling at the ump.
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  #76  
Old 24 September 2018, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Blatherskite View Post
Only if you're deliberately misrepresenting what cultural appropriation is in order to, I assume, make an out-of-nowhere attack against people who criticise cultural appropriation.

Or do you genuinely believe blonde hair is specific to a culture?
as much as dressing as a geisha is specific to a culture. and women have been called cultural appropriators for doing that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
Except for the part where its, you know, completely different.

Serena did behave poorly and she was punished by her sport's designated authority.
Kaepernick did not behave poorly and he was effectively blackballed by his sport.
the similarity is that the act or behaviour has been left out of the argument.

Quote:
The cartoon is actually racist and should be talked about.
I disagree about it being racist. It was a good caricature. They are not meant to be flattering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jusenkyo no Pikachu View Post
I’m not big on sports myself.

All I’ve managed to surmise is: her coach coached, she didn’t see but the ump did. She got frustrated enough to break her racquet and got done for yelling at the ump.
She claimed not to have seen.

Many players have been disqualified from tournaments for bad behaviour.I can't find an example of a woman being disqualified. Serena wasn't actually disqualified. She was penalised one game.
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  #77  
Old 24 September 2018, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by damian View Post
as much as dressing as a geisha is specific to a culture. and women have been called cultural appropriators for doing that.
Geishas did originate in Japan, though, making the style culturally Japanese. You would get nothing but confused looks if you put on geisha garb for a Cinco de Mayo celebration, for instance.

Blonde hair presumably did originate somewhere, but it's been so dispersed for so long that it can't easily be used as a cultural marker (although you don't typically see blonde hair among some races). It's not just European, either - it's seen among Russian people, Asian people, Aboriginal Aussies, African Berbers and probably other parts of the world too (especially if you take into account albinism).

So somebody dying their hair blonde isn't necessarily representing any kind of culture (although they might be, like the Ganguro girls of Japan).

I suspect you must be being disingenuous by suggesting that blonde hair is as region-specific as geishas so I'm not sure if arguing the point is worthwhile.
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  #78  
Old 24 September 2018, 12:32 PM
Jusenkyo no Pikachu Jusenkyo no Pikachu is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damian View Post
as much as dressing as a geisha is specific to a culture. and women have been called cultural appropriators for doing that.

the similarity is that the act or behaviour has been left out of the argument.

I disagree about it being racist. It was a good caricature. They are not meant to be flattering.
The worst part of the actual event was when she threw down the racquet.

She did not jump up and down like a crazed ape going “ooga booga”.
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  #79  
Old 24 September 2018, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blatherskite View Post
Or do you genuinely believe blonde hair is specific to a culture?
Quote:
Originally Posted by damian View Post
as much as dressing as a geisha is specific to a culture. and women have been called cultural appropriators for doing that.
Really?

Having a certain haircolour that - before the European expansion - naturally occured from the British Isles to the Ural mountains and from the north of Scandinavia to the Alpes (an area spanning several cultures from Celtic to Slavic), and that today can be found all over the world in all kinds of cultures, and wearing a very specific dress that is significant for a very specific role/occupation in the Japanese society from the 18th century to today is the same thing?
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  #80  
Old 24 September 2018, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by damian View Post
the similarity is that the act or behaviour has been left out of the argument.
That's a very narrow window to say that two things are "the same". Especially since Trump was deliberately trying to distract from an act that is not bad. In the Serena situation, the act is being left out because it is so much less worse than the racist cartoons that supplanted it and because the act was already punished by the tennis authority.
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