Oprah says "tip 10 percent"

[annabohly]

Just curious, since tipping isn't done in some other countries, If the tip is not driving the server to take good care of the customer then how do restaurants ensure that good service is being given to their customers?

[ganzfeld]

Originally Posted by annabohly

Just curious, since tipping isn't done in some other countries, If the tip is not driving the server to take good care of the customer then how do restaurants ensure that good service is being given to their customers?

They train the workers, pay them a decent wage, and, I suppose, fire them when they can't do it. It seems to me the US has trouble, in general, training workers to give good service. I'm not sure that tipping helps. (See rest of thread -- plus the 100 Things... thread.)

[stalker]

Originally Posted by annabohly

Just curious, since tipping isn't done in some other countries, If the tip is not driving the server to take good care of the customer then how do restaurants ensure that good service is being given to their customers?

I know that ganzfeld has answered this already, but I find the question kind of intriguing.

What other industries in the USA have tipping for customer facing jobs? For the ones that don't, is there a noticeable difference in the quality of customer care that you get?

When people work in salaried or wage only jobs do they slack off and just do as little as they can to get by because there's no financial advantage in doing any more? (I'm really hoping that the answer to this last one is "no!" ETA: or at least "not often" )

[Esprise Me]

Originally Posted by Floater

If you're not satisfied with your wages, then get a new job. It's as simple as that. The US tipping system, based on alms as it is, could best be described as humiliating and degrading and if enough people opt out from working as wait staff the employers might learn something.

Remind me again how that worked out for the meatpackers. And all the other American workers whose jobs have been shipped overseas or staffed almost entirely with illegal immigrants too afraid of being deported to complain about being screwed by their employers.

I am priviliged enough to have been able to "opt out," as you say, from relying on tips. Not everyone has that luxury. And frankly, blaming the workers for their shoddy working conditions is naive at best.

[Beachlife!]

Meatpacking jobs have been shipped overseas? How does that work?

[dfresh]

Originally Posted by Beachlife!

Meatpacking jobs have been shipped overseas? How does that work?

"shipped overseas or staffed almost entirely with illegal immigrants". I believe Esprise Me meant meatpacking jobs are mostly done by immigrants now.

[Beachlife!]

Originally Posted by dfresh

"shipped overseas or staffed almost entirely with illegal immigrants". I believe Esprise Me meant meatpacking jobs are mostly done by immigrants now.

Immigrants or illegal immigrants? There is a huge difference between the two. I'd be interested in statistics that show that those jobs are staffed primarily by illegal immigrants.

[Errata]

Originally Posted by Beachlife!

Immigrants or illegal immigrants? There is a huge difference between the two. I'd be interested in statistics that show that those jobs are staffed primarily by illegal immigrants.

I don't know about industry wide statistics, but the industry is pretty notorious for abuse and there are many individual sites where it is the case. For example, a recent raid turned up 400 illegal immigrants working in a single plant, many of them working like slaves 100 hours a week in awful conditions.

These aren't isolated occurrences, they're common enough to have changed the whole industry. 30 years ago, meat packing used to be a difficult job, but one that paid a living wage. Now it's a minimum wage job, with wages so low in large part due to widespread employment of illegal immigrants. It's dropped substantially even before taking into account inflation.

There's no way they could employ enough people to do an unpleasant job like that at those wages legally. It's not that easy to immigrate legally to the US. There aren't millions of legal immigrants lining up to do the very worst jobs for minimum wage or below. Those jobs can offer pay like that only by resorting to illegal immigrants. Sure they employ some of their employees legally, but if they had to rely solely on legal immigrants, supply vs demand would drive up wages to something more livable.

I don't blame the illegal immigrants for trying to make a living. They're doing crap work for crap pay. But I do blame the employers and the regulators who fail to make it punishing enough for the employers not to do it.

[AnglRdr]

Fast Food Nation, the book not the movie, talks a lot about the meat production industry and how it is rife with the abuses Errata talks about.

[Beachlife!]

Staffed almost entirely with illegal aliens?

[AnglRdr]

"Almost entirely" is an exaggeration, to be sure. According to this 2006 report, it's estimated that 26% of Swift employees are/were illegal immigrants.

Of course, as a result of these raids, Swift itself faced no sanction whatsoever.

[Beachlife!]

So then restraunts are going to become staffed with 26% illegal aliens unless we get rid of the American system for tipping?

[Floater]

Originally Posted by Errata

Your friends brother sounds like an ass. Foreigners behaving rudely according to local standards are not going to "improve" the local culture to be more like their own "superior" culture. They're just going to be written off as jerks, and rightly so.

You might not like this, but in my opinion you are brainwashed with the idea that "tipping is GOOD" (or "tipping is GOD"). Everything has a price and that price should be stated on the price tag. If you think a gratuity (something given voluntarily or beyond obligation) is part of the price change job.

[Errata]

Originally Posted by Jay Tea

and who mentioned 'superior cultures'? Nobody - Chip on shoulder?

The following person, for instance, is clearly a cultural imperialist:

Originally Posted by Floater

You might not like this, but in my opinion you are brainwashed with the idea that "tipping is GOOD" (or "tipping is GOD"). Everything has a price and that price should be stated on the price tag. If you think a gratuity (something given voluntarily or beyond obligation) is part of the price change job.

I never said it's the best system, but it's the system in place. As an individual you don't have the choice of going into another country and changing the culture by being a jackass within the context of that culture. If you don't pay according to accepted local conventions, you're not a pioneer remaking the world in your own image, you're just a self-righteous cheapskate.

[Friends of Alfred]

Originally Posted by Errata

As an individual you don't have the choice of going into another country and changing the culture by being a jackass within the context of that culture. If you don't pay according to accepted local conventions, you're not a pioneer remaking the world in your own image, you're just a self-righteous cheapskate.

Whilst not disagreeing with you, and speaking as a person who does tip quite generously*, I'm not going to leave a tip if the food or service is poor simply because it's expected.

[Floater]

Originally Posted by Errata

I never said it's the best system, but it's the system in place. As an individual you don't have the choice of going into another country and changing the culture by being a jackass within the context of that culture. If you don't pay according to accepted local conventions, you're not a pioneer remaking the world in your own image, you're just a self-righteous cheapskate.

How nice of you to exemplify that Uessians are brainwashed about tipping. It's a degrading and humiliating system, but I'm not the one to bring it down. You should do it from within.

[ganzfeld]

One problem here is calling it a "gratuity" which does seem to imply it is a voluntary thing. Unfortunately, it's been taken to absurd lengths in the US. That's a problem. The problem isn't helped by people refusing to pay it -- unless they're going to start some kind of movement. It borders on a verbal contract in the US, not legally binding but certainly socially so. (Legally so in restaurants that state up front that the amount will be added to the bill.)

The way it's set up, some workers really don't get paid if they don't get tipped. That's wrong but it's also wrong to tell them to "get another job" after you've taken advantage of their unfair situation. When you eat at an establishment like that, that's the social contract you enter. If you don't like that system then, actually, I suggest you eat at a different place. There are restaurants even in the US that don't do the tipping system. If it's wrong not to pay them fairly then it's at least as wrong to take advantage of the fact that they aren't - and even more so to add insult to injury.

I should add that I'm quite aware (as someone who used to make a living off of the kindness of customers - and spent a good deal of it in keeping the other locals well-tipped) that not everyone in a tip=pay situation is getting the shaft. If managed fairly, it can be like a franchise, like investing in the popularity of the establishment. I'm not against it in principle. Unfortunately, like a lot of raw deals (see MLMs), it doesn't work out as well as they sell it to newcomers. A lot of workers do get ****ed in the world, whether they work in a sweatshop, in a field, or at tables; it's actually kind of mean to say, "Just get another job [loser]."

[Singing in the Drizzle]

Originally Posted by fitz1980

What state does this @$$ hole live in because where I work it's like $3 per hour since tips are supposed to make up the rest?

Go back to post #118 and click on the link and read. There are 5 state that require service workers in the food industry to be paid full state minimum wages before tips. There are two more states that require full minimum wage if the business is large enough.

If you looked at the information would have seen that I must live in Washington state. This is because it is the only state that service workers are paid full minimum wages before tips and the hourly minimum wage is $8.55 per hour. It is under the heading "STATE LAW DOES NOT ALLOW TIP CREDIT".

[Beejtronic]

Originally Posted by ganzfeld

One problem here is calling it a "gratuity" which does seem to imply it is a voluntary thing. Unfortunately, it's been taken to absurd lengths in the US. That's a problem. The problem isn't helped by people refusing to pay it -- unless they're going to start some kind of movement. It borders on a verbal contract in the US, not legally binding but certainly socially so. (Legally so in restaurants that state up front that the amount will be added to the bill.)

It is a gratuity because it is voluntary. It's a way of saying "Here's something extra for your troubles/ to show my gratitude." If certain states have turned that into something else, that's not my problem.

[annabohly]

Originally Posted by stalker

I know that ganzfeld has answered this already, but I find the question kind of intriguing.

What other industries in the USA have tipping for customer facing jobs? For the ones that don't, is there a noticeable difference in the quality of customer care that you get?

When people work in salaried or wage only jobs do they slack off and just do as little as they can to get by because there's no financial advantage in doing any more? (I'm really hoping that the answer to this last one is "no!" ETA: or at least "not often" )

As far as I know , servers/ waiters/waitresses are the only workers who do not get minimum wage. IME some of the salry/wage earners do slack off and do the minimum as well as others go above whats expected of them.