Hell

[ganzfeld]

Originally Posted by BlueStar

But while saying "I agree with everything Dawkins says in the God Delusion" would possibly be seen as being a jerk, saying you believe in the Bible generally isn't [...]

I don't know of any evidence that either of these claims is true.

[damian]

Originally Posted by Tom o' Bedlam

I find the attitude that the details and history of the Bible "don't matter" to be not only socially disrespectful, but historically, anthropologically, and literarily irresponsible.

Then you must feel the same way about the Roman, Greek and Norse gods? The Australian Aboriginal mythology holds that the world was born of the rainbow serpent. We dismiss that as them not understanding the reality. Same with the young Earth creationists. (Who hasn't laughed at them?)

It's nothing more than vanity that makes a person think that their faith ( beliefs without evidence) is the truth. If a christian child was born into a Hindu family, they'd be taught that Hinduism was the truth.

In the broader scheme of life, I don't really have an issue with childish thinking that people haven't grown out of. But the reality is that those beliefs are still used to try to control society.

[ganzfeld]

Are the details of the history and contents of the Holy Quran equally important or only the Bible? (I don't even live in a Christian country. I have no idea what I would even do with that supposedly important information. Argue about it here I suppose. It was part of my education but, except where it related to the history of philosophy, mostly a waste of time, IMO. The same is true for a lot of education but...)

[damian]

Originally Posted by ganzfeld

Are the details of the history and contents of the Holy Quran equally important or only the Bible?

Yes. To me, all religious texts hold equal importance (and relevance).

[Furienna]

Originally Posted by damian

Then you must feel the same way about the Roman, Greek and Norse gods? The Australian Aboriginal mythology holds that the world was born of the rainbow serpent. We dismiss that as them not understanding the reality. Same with the young Earth creationists. (Who hasn't laughed at them?).

But there is, of course, a difference. There are some neo-pagans, who try to revive the old Greek and Norse religions. And I suppose the Aborigins do what they can to keep their old religion alive. But still, bigger religions like Christianity and Islam have much more political power, so they can also demand more respect. But of course, all religions deserve to be remembered and recorded. And its followers must be respected.

[damian]

Originally Posted by Furienna

But of course, all religions deserve to be remembered and recorded. And its followers must be respected.

Why? Why should a religious belief "demand" any respect?

[ganzfeld]

I just think human beings should be respected. As for their ideas, not so much. People should be 100% free to say what they want. Yet, I don't see the point of most intentional disrespect, except when it's just a side effect of something. For example, this is a perfect forum for anyone to say what one wants about any book - scripture or not. If the intent is an exchange of ideas and other people are offended by ordinary ideas, that's not really the fault of the person giving an opinion. That doesn't mean it's OK to stand on the street corner and shout it or to intentionally provoke people. (Well, it's noise pollution, for one thing.)

[ganzfeld]

Originally Posted by Furienna

But still, bigger religions like Christianity and Islam have much more political power, so they can also demand more respect.

So... Might makes right? I wonder how the early Christians would have felt about that.

[Furienna]

Originally Posted by damian

Why? Why should a religious belief "demand" any respect?

Well, as long as they don't hurt anybody, why not respect them?

Originally Posted by ganzfeld

So... Might makes right? I wonder how the early Christians would have felt about that.

What I meant was, bigger religions have always been powerful than smaller religions. That's just how it is, whether that's right ot not. All religions, big and small, deserve the same respect though.

[hambubba]

Originally Posted by ganzfeld

So... Might makes right? I wonder how the early Christians would have felt about that.

Not very good. The intention was not to be "in control", but to win the world to belief in Christ. Those are two very different things.

We could spin off many tangents about that, I'm sure.

[ganzfeld]

Originally Posted by Furienna

All religions, big and small, deserve the same respect though.

Riiight. Human sacrifices anyone? Or shall we just subjugate half of our members, make them cover their bodies head to foot? I will defend anyone's right to believe anything they want but when religious groups do terrible things, no, I don't respect them.

[Furienna]

I said "as long as they don't hurt anybody". When we're talking about cruel customs like human sacrifice, foot binding and "female circumcision", I agree that it's hard to respect it. But when people are raised into believing such customs are right, we can't just expect them to change their mind just like that. Human sacrifice and foot binding are pretty much things of the past though, thank God.

[GenYus234]

Originally Posted by Tom o' Bedlam

But didn't Islam at least partially spring from Christianity? In any case, I doubt that it would be Islam exactly as we know it.

I think Islam sprung more from Judaism than Christianity. There are similarities in that they are both Abrahamic. But Islam does not recognize that Jesus was the son of God, was crucified, or that Jesus' death absolves man of sin, so they don't really have much to do with Christianity. Of course, without the Christian Crusades, I would agree that modern day Islam would probably be much different than it is.

[Tom o' Bedlam]

Originally Posted by damian

Then you must feel the same way about the Roman, Greek and Norse gods? The Australian Aboriginal mythology holds that the world was born of the rainbow serpent. We dismiss that as them not understanding the reality. Same with the young Earth creationists. (Who hasn't laughed at them?)

Absolutely! These things are important; they tell us much about the cultures that subscribe/subscribed to them and about humanity in general, and to dismiss them as "not mattering" would be the height of arrogance! And I don't know who the "we" is you're referring to, but you can rest assured I'm not among them. I know there are still those who worship the old Norse gods (one of whom was even a member of this board at one time), and I have nothing but respect for such people and their beliefs, as I would respect those of anyone who hold a genuine belief in Zeus, Ra, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Even young earth creationists. I might disagree with them; I might even argue with them on any points where they claim their beliefs are supported by empirical science. But I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to tell them that everything they stand for is a lie.[/quote]

In the broader scheme of life, I don't really have an issue with childish thinking that people haven't grown out of. But the reality is that those beliefs are still used to try to control society.

A hammer may be used to commit evil, but that doesn't negate its usefulness or importance. We condemn or commend the person holding it, not the thing itself.


ETA:

Originally Posted by GenYus234

I think Islam sprung more from Judaism than Christianity. There are similarities in that they are both Abrahamic. But Islam does not recognize that Jesus was the son of God, was crucified, or that Jesus' death absolves man of sin, so they don't really have much to do with Christianity. Of course, without the Christian Crusades, I would agree that modern day Islam would probably be much different than it is.

But they do recognize Jesus as an important prophet and (I think) believe in the Virgin Birth. I believe the former is true of Judaism, but not sure about the latter (I'm more than willing to be set straight on these points).

But yes, I had always sort of thought of Islam as mainly coming from Christianity until I made that post, when I actually thought about it and realized it was probably more Jewish in origin. I figured my original point was still valid, though, as I would be surprised if the religion had no Christian influence whatsoever.


ETA2:
Spanked by Furienna as I was editing.

[crocoduck_hunter]

Originally Posted by Furienna

But of course, all religions deserve to be remembered and recorded. And its followers must be respected.

The followers of a religion are entitled to the same respect that all humans deserve. The religion itself isn't.

[Furienna]

Originally Posted by GenYus234

I think Islam sprung more from Judaism than Christianity. There are similarities in that they are both Abrahamic. But Islam does not recognize that Jesus was the son of God, was crucified, or that Jesus' death absolves man of sin, so they don't really have much to do with Christianity. Of course, without the Christian Crusades, I would agree that modern day Islam would probably be much different than it is.

Islam basically took what Muhammed liked the best from the ancient Arabian religion, Judaism and Christianity. And about Jesus, he is considered a great prophet also within Islam, second only to Muhammed himself, I believe. Muslims won't agree Muslims with Christians about Jesus being the son of God, or about the crucifiction and what it meant, but they do revere him and agree about him being born by a virgin. And his mother, Mary (Maryam), also seems to be the most important woman in the Quran.

[chillas]

Originally Posted by Furienna

I said "as long as they don't hurt anybody".

Some people, myself included, would say that teaching children that they will suffer ever lasting torments if they're not "good" enough is hurting them. Rejecting science and trying to replace it with dogma hurts everyone. Forcing arbitrary morality that is solely based on religious tenants hurts everyone.

[Tom o' Bedlam]

That, I think, is where sober and respectful discussion should come in. All mockery serves to do is draw a line between "us" and "them" and cause people to cling tighter to their dogma.

Also, a nitpick: the word is "tenets", not "tenants."


ETA:
In fact, this could be yet another reason why the OP is important. The knowledge that hell as a definitive concept didn't originally exist in the Bible might sway some believers to adopt a more "positive" form of Christianity.

[Furienna]

Originally Posted by chillas

Some people, myself included, would say that teaching children that they will suffer ever lasting torments if they're not "good" enough is hurting them. Rejecting science and trying to replace it with dogma hurts everyone. Forcing arbitrary morality that is solely based on religious tenants hurts everyone.

True, and that's why it's so important that children are taught about different ways to see things, so they can choose for themselves. Teaching religious dogmas instead of science isn't really something, that I can approve of either. But some parents are young Earth creationists, and while I don't agree with them, I understand if they object to evolution being taught in schools. So I don't know what to say. Every child have the right to get a good education, but freedom of religion is important as well.

[chillas]

Originally Posted by Tom o' Bedlam

Also, a nitpick: the word is "tenets", not "tenants."

D'oh! You're right, of course.