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Old 25 November 2017, 01:02 AM
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Frying Pan Things you shouldn't have to tell people

If you don't want to be accused of being a transphobe, maybe you shouldn't use transphobic dog whistles all the time.
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Old 27 November 2017, 02:42 PM
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What's a transphobic dog whistle?

Seaboe
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Old 27 November 2017, 03:29 PM
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One example would be how North Carolina's infamous anti-transgender HB2 bill was titled "Public Facilities Privacy and Security Act" to strongly suggest that allowing transgender people to use the bathroom of their gender would be dangerous.

ETA: From what I've seen, most dog whistles against transgender people take that tack or a similar one such as the politician who said that he as child (and by extension) other boys would have pretended to be transgender in order to be allowed into the girls' locker room, suggesting that transgender identity is pretend. The other attacks generally seem to be the same as ones against gay people, that they are more prone to criminal acts, especially child molestation, that they are attempting to convert young people, and that they are suffering from mental disorders that can be "cured".
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Old 27 November 2017, 05:46 PM
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This person was continually referring to people believing that they're transgender and was otherwise implying that it's a delusion.
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Old 27 November 2017, 06:36 PM
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Thank you for your very coherent explanation, GenYus. I'm glad I didn't ask whether it was like a wolf whistle (give me a break; I'd never heard the term before).

I'm sorry to say I have a coworker of whom I'm quite fond who uses "only wants to use the women's room for nefarious purposes" argument.

Seaboe
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Old 27 November 2017, 06:48 PM
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Put your dirty dishes in the dishwasher!

First, there's the dope in our office that leaves his oatmeal dish 'soaking' in the sink, but never returns to put it in the dishwasher (we haven't yet figured out which dope is doing it).

Second, was the guy in the kitchen who took a mug from the cupboard, drank some water from it and then put it back in the cupboard (I have now identified him as one of the auditors that come from the accounting firm to look at our books). I would have said something to him at the time, but I only saw it out of the corner of my eye and thought I was mistaken...looked in the cupboard, and nope, not a mistake, there's the cold, wet mug sitting there amongst the clean mugs. Which also blows my first theory that he was putting it aside to use again later.
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Old 27 November 2017, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
One example would be how North Carolina's infamous anti-transgender HB2 bill was titled "Public Facilities Privacy and Security Act" to strongly suggest that allowing transgender people to use the bathroom of their gender would be dangerous.

ETA: From what I've seen, most dog whistles against transgender people take that tack or a similar one such as the politician who said that he as child (and by extension) other boys would have pretended to be transgender in order to be allowed into the girls' locker room, suggesting that transgender identity is pretend.
This issue came up recently in a campaign for a state senate seat. One of the candidates used the word predators and seemed to be sincerely expressing a concern about predators, and did not say that transgender persons are predators. Nevertheless the other side was outraged.

In all seriousness, though, what about that argument?

Suppose a man who is not transgender goes into the women's locker room. One of the women complains and the facility calls the police. The man tells them, "But, Officer, you don't understand. I'm transgender! That's my gender identity!" Would the police have to take his word for it and say, "Well, if he says he's transgender, he's transgender, and we have to take his word for it. Sorry, ladies, we can't throw him out."

I know that *transgender persons* are not *predators* and that this situation has not frequently happened. But I can see women not comfortable with a man who is not transgender in a woman's facility, and I'm asking in all sincerity if there's some mechanism to prevent it.

Thanks.

Bill
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Old 27 November 2017, 09:21 PM
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Things will vary widely between states and I don't how widespread this is, but in Arizona, a person in the process of transitioning can get a driver's license with her female name and picture*. In that case, a truly transgendered person would be in the same position as a male-appearing cis-woman, they would simply (if embarrassingly) show the police officer their driver's license or other ID that shows that they are in the correct locker room. And a cis-man pretending to be transgendered would be in the same position as it stands now, he would not have an official ID stating that he was actually a woman and could be prosecuted.

ETA: Getting this license requires a doctor to submit that the person has irrevocably committed to the transition. I don't know exactly what that entails**, but a friend of mine was able to get her driver's license as female before she had fully come out.

* Assuming a cis-male transitioning to female as per the hypothetical.
** I would guess beginning to take female hormones would qualify.

Last edited by GenYus234; 27 November 2017 at 09:26 PM. Reason: correct that the person gets a new license, not a second one
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  #9  
Old 27 November 2017, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
Things will vary widely between states and I don't how widespread this is, but in Arizona, a person in the process of transitioning can get a driver's license with her female name and picture*. In that case, a truly transgendered person would be in the same position as a male-appearing cis-woman, they would simply (if embarrassingly) show the police officer their driver's license or other ID that shows that they are in the correct locker room. And a cis-man pretending to be transgendered would be in the same position as it stands now, he would not have an official ID stating that he was actually a woman and could be prosecuted.

ETA: Getting this license requires a doctor to submit that the person has irrevocably committed to the transition. I don't know exactly what that entails**, but a friend of mine was able to get her driver's license as female before she had fully come out.

* Assuming a cis-male transitioning to female as per the hypothetical.
** I would guess beginning to take female hormones would qualify.
Thanks for the reply.

So, apparently, the person in my example (the cis-man who is not transgendered), who has not taken any steps toward transitioning could still be prosecuted. Just claiming to be transgender apparently isn't enough.

Thanks.

Bill
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Old 27 November 2017, 09:57 PM
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First, I'm going to summarize what I think Bill is saying. Since I may misunderstand, I want to make sure we are clear.
The question is about if what appears to be a cis-man is in a women's locker room, right? Such that a cis-woman in the locker room thinks that it is a predator, and calls the police? With the statement that it seems like there should be a way to remove this cis-man?

If that is the case, I have a number of issues. First, it could actually be a trans-man, who due to laws in the state is in the locker room that laws require them to be in. Here is a story about a man who was born a woman, but you wouldn't think so by looking. A North Carolina style bathroom bill would require him to be in the women's locker room.
Second, there are certainly cis-women who can easily be mistaken for men. The man in the linked article mentioned that he was always looked at strangely in the women's bathrooms before he started to transition. That is looking how he was born, matching the gender on the BC.
Third, most trans people will just want to do what everyone else wants to do - finish what needs to be done and get out. Making any kind of stink about who should and should not be there is just slowing that down.
And finally, allowing trans-people in the bathroom will not change anything about predators in bathrooms. If a perverted cis-man wants to go in a women's locker room, they could do so just as easily in the past as now. If they are creeping in the locker room, it shouldn't matter if it is a cis-man, trans-man, cis-woman, trans-woman, or any other type of gender that I haven't mentioned. Being a creep is the problem. The mechanism to prevent it is the same as someone being a creep anywhere, which unfortunately means not a lot. If this was a true concern for someone, and not just a 'keep the weird people away from me' deal, they would certainly be pushing for much more stringent laws on protecting people in the workplace, or school, or pretty much anywhere. Trans people in bathrooms doesn't even come close to registering as a big driver of sexual assault and harassment.
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Old 27 November 2017, 10:01 PM
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Generally, officers aren't going to take claims of innocence at face value without some proof. If a young looking person is seen drinking alcohol, just claiming they are actually an adult with panhypopituitarism would probably not be enough.
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Old 27 November 2017, 10:29 PM
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Thanks for the reply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Credence View Post
First, I'm going to summarize what I think Bill is saying. Since I may misunderstand, I want to make sure we are clear.
The question is about if what appears to be a cis-man is in a women's locker room, right? Such that a cis-woman in the locker room thinks that it is a predator, and calls the police? With the statement that it seems like there should be a way to remove this cis-man?
That is essentially the intended question, with the addition that the cis-woman does not necessarily think the other person is a predator, but just plain isn't comfortable with that person being in the room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Credence View Post
And finally, allowing trans-people in the bathroom will not change anything about predators in bathrooms. If a perverted cis-man wants to go in a women's locker room, they could do so just as easily in the past as now. If they are creeping in the locker room, it shouldn't matter if it is a cis-man, trans-man, cis-woman, trans-woman, or any other type of gender that I haven't mentioned. Being a creep is the problem. The mechanism to prevent it is the same as someone being a creep anywhere, which unfortunately means not a lot. If this was a true concern for someone, and not just a 'keep the weird people away from me' deal, they would certainly be pushing for much more stringent laws on protecting people in the workplace, or school, or pretty much anywhere. Trans people in bathrooms doesn't even come close to registering as a big driver of sexual assault and harassment.
Right. As I said, I understand that transgender people are not necessarily predators.

But I'm pretty sure most women would not be comfortable with *men* in the locker room with them, whether they're predators or not.

Thanks.

Bill
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Old 27 November 2017, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill View Post
Suppose a man who is not transgender goes into the women's locker room. One of the women complains and the facility calls the police. The man tells them, "But, Officer, you don't understand. I'm transgender! That's my gender identity!" Would the police have to take his word for it and say, "Well, if he says he's transgender, he's transgender, and we have to take his word for it. Sorry, ladies, we can't throw him out."
How many times in the history of humankind have men claimed to be transgender in order to go into a woman's locker room. It's just an absurd fantasy, honestly, not a realistic situation. Even if it did happen once or twice in that long sordid history of stupid things people do, so what? There are lots and lots of other absurd things people can claim or do to defraud or threaten others and we don't have laws that disenfranchise others because of those (in most situations rare) cases. Why? Because people don't really give a darn about trans people's rights. Why? Because on some level even if they don't admit it many still believe this kind of ridiculous fantasy.
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Old 27 November 2017, 10:59 PM
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The answer to the question is no - no a man cannot hang around in a woman's bathroom and then play the transgender card and think the police have to take his word for it. If his sole source for "how can I peek at gals and get away with it" is right wing news sources then he's going to be in for a big surprise if he tries to pull that kind of con.
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Old 28 November 2017, 12:44 AM
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What if a famous reality TV schlep used his position as a pageant staff to go into the women's dressing room?! That's why we don't allow men to be involved with pageants! Not really. Because we don't give much of a damn about the rights of a man born without a willy - or vice versa - to use the bathroom of their own gender verses the "right" of a man to be involved with a pageant. That's how little societies think of "those" people. As soon as people try to give them the slightest consideration (g)we jump to conclusions that haven't ever even been proposed for actual and existing predators victimizing people on a daily basis.
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Old 28 November 2017, 05:29 AM
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Adding to everything said above, I would assume that even a (cis) woman in a womens locker room can be thrown out and be questioned by the police or even be prosecuted if she behaves in a creepy or harrassing manner.

Let's agree that we already have "no creeps in the locker room" laws and don't need "no trans in the locker room" laws.
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Old 28 November 2017, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill View Post
I'm pretty sure most women would not be comfortable with *men* in the locker room with them, whether they're predators or not.
Then they're not going to be comfortable with trans men in the locker room with them. Which is exactly what laws which require people to use the locker room of the gender they were assigned at birth would cause to happen.
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Old 28 November 2017, 02:01 PM
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Am I wrong that most transgendered people try to appear the gender they are moving toward? That is, a cis-woman would appear to be a woman, and a trans-male would appear to be a male?

If this is true, how would the XX woman know that the cis-woman was not a woman in the first place, in order to call the cops?

Seaboe
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Old 28 November 2017, 02:12 PM
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Especially since there are cis women who may appear "masculine" to an observer for one reason or another (height, deep voice, manner of dress, etc.), but are not transgender.
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Old 28 November 2017, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaboe Muffinchucker View Post
If this is true, how would the XX woman know that the cis-woman was not a woman in the first place, in order to call the cops?
You're putting in at least 10,000% more thought into this scenario than the people who came up with it and are only using it as a scare tactic to drum up voters.
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