Do we have precedent for ignoring a lunatic?

[Plurabelle]

Apparently, when DT went on Fox and Friends this week, even his lunatic friends at Fox felt he seemed unhinged and without purpose.

If Steve Doocy thinks you're nuts, you're nuts, sorry.

Does the US have precedent for a seriously out of it chief executive, past Wilson? Melania is not stepping in anytime soon.

Or have we crossed an irretrievable line based on the power of the executive? I'd blame Ronnie for that but at least he had an opposing Congress and knew it. This has become a joke of an oligarchy. We are the only Western country to have worse access to women's healthcare than Ireland.

Do Republicans in the House/Senate not even give a shit anymore? DT pays lip service and his insane ICE campaigns help, but he personally gives less than a shit about things like abortion, etc.

[BoKu]

"Unpresidented" comes to mind.

[crocoduck_hunter]

Originally Posted by Plurabelle

Do Republicans in the House/Senate not even give a shit anymore? DT pays lip service and his insane ICE campaigns help, but he personally gives less than a shit about things like abortion, etc.

No, they don't. And they're not going to until they catch on to the idea that aligning with Dump is political suicide. If Republicans lose big on the midterm elections, I suspect that suddenly impeachment will become a popular thing so they can replace him with Pence instead of letting a Democrat-controlled Congress perform a more thorough gutting.

[Mouse]

My view, regarding Trump and the GOP, is that there is no deeper zen about anything they do. The simple truth is they sold their souls for money and power decades ago, and just do not care. They won’t outright admit it, but deep down, they know that no matter how badly they screwup, they have the money and connections needed to buy themselves out of trouble. Money buys a lot of things, including escape hatches. Their money and influence shelters them from the consequences of their actions; they will be able to live comfortably, regardless of how badly their horrible policies NFBSK over everyone else. If things really go south, they will use their wealth to GTFO to another country and do the same thing again, while everyone else is left behind to clean up their messes.

Heck, what I just typed, is pretty much what Trump has spent his entire life doing. Trump is basically a goddanged con artist and this is what they do: show up in a place with a good hustle, find some suitable marks and squeeze as much money out of them as you can, then GTFO with their money, as the scheme starts to collapse under the weight of all their lies.

[GenYus234]

If there was an "ignore the POTUS" action, what would it be? Coup d'facto? Coup d'etat with the POTUS left as a figurehead like WWII Japan?

[Mouse]

I don’t know how that would work either. Woodrow Wilson suffered so many strokes that by the his second term, he was so debilitated that his wife, Edith, was effectively running the country, serving as president in all but name. She claimed that she ran everything by Woodrow, but we only have her word on that. Edith carefully controlled and limited access to her husband. I’m not sure if we could count on something like that with Melania.

Though maybe it would be like with Reagan. It’s not known exactly when the Alzheimer’s set in, but there’s evidence that by his second term, he was debilitated enough that his cabinet worked around him. Trouble is, Trump’s hires are based on nepotism or brown-nosing, so there probably isn’t anyone willing to call him out. It might be an effective strategy to distract him somehow, be like, “Crooked Hillary said you couldn’t hold onto this bucket of sand,” then hand him the bucket and try to get something done.

[RichardM]

I think someone mentioned (How's that for saying I have no idea if this is fact or not?) that the cabinet can find the President incapable of carrying out the duties of his office.

[GenYus234]

They can via the 25th Amendment to the Constitution.

Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

But the full process would require Congress too.

Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.

ETA: AFAIK, this has never come up, not even the cabinet meeting with the VP to discuss such an action. (But if they had and didn't come up with a majority, I doubt it would be made public.)

[Keeper of the Mad Bunnies]

Originally Posted by RichardM

I think someone mentioned (How's that for saying I have no idea if this is fact or not?) that the cabinet can find the President incapable of carrying out the duties of his office.

25th Amendment

Section 4. Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.

[erwins]

As much as it pains me to point this out, there is a difference between "is a terrible president" and "is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office."

[Psihala]

Considering he basically works 9-5, doesn't do anything to help get legislation passed, and then goes golfing on the weekends, I'm not certain how many duties he's discharging.

~Psihala

[Lainie]

Not doing something != being incapable of doing something.

[Psihala]

Yes, thank you.

~Psihala

[Alarm]

must..
resist...
joke...

duty
discharging..

[Dr. Dave]

Originally Posted by GenYus234

ETA: AFAIK, this has never come up, not even the cabinet meeting with the VP to discuss such an action. (But if they had and didn't come up with a majority, I doubt it would be made public.)

I wonder if it at least got to that stage when Reagan was shot and in surgery. I know the reports were that he was alert before going under anesthesia so maybe it was not needed and there was another process.

ETA: Apparently not, but in 1985 when he needed an unrelated surgery, Reagan himself followed a process to transfer and then later reclaim power.

Link

Administration officials were criticized by some in Congress for not tranferring power to Mr. Bush when Mr. Reagan underwent surgery after he was shot on March 30, 1981. Administration officials acknowledged that the criticism was a factor in Mr. Reagan's decision today.

[GenYus234]

Originally Posted by Dr. Dave

I wonder if it at least got to that stage when Reagan was shot and in surgery. I know the reports were that he was alert before going under anesthesia so maybe it was not needed and there was another process.

Al Haig was in charge.

IANACS, but I believe this part of Article II, Section 1 would still be in effect:

In case of the removal of the President from office, or of his death, resignation, or inability to discharge the powers and duties of the said office, the same shall devolve on the Vice President...

[Dr. Dave]

I pitch em up, you hit em out.

On your second point, sure, but AIUI the issue being addressed by Amendment 25 is, short of death, how to determine the POTUS has an "inability to discharge the duties..." and the question was has it ever happened, short of death. My musing/question was did they do anything about it while Reagan was in surgery- not necessarily planning what to do if he had died.

[GenYus234]

As I read it, the 4th clause of the 25th laid out a formal process whereby the VP and cabinet could force a President to be removed from office but didn't establish that as the only way a President could be considered unable to discharge the duties of his office. If there was a situation where a Presidential-level decision had to be made while the President was incapacitated (or, in the old days, if a President was traveling and out of communication) people would probably decide on a de-facto transfer of power to the Vice President. I don't think such a situation has ever come up where there was such a decision that couldn't wait for either the formal process or for the President to become able to discharge his duties.