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  #21  
Old 22 March 2017, 01:41 AM
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So far most have pointed towards the Clinton administration as the genesis of the GOP turning into a doomsday cult, but I wonder if there were signs beforehand. Eisenhower remains the last GOP president to not leave his country in worse shape than it was when he took office, but anyone willing to venture whether the rot took root in the Nixon era or the Reagan era.
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  #22  
Old 22 March 2017, 03:45 AM
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I'm going to go ahead and pin it on the Southern Strategy as the real start from where the party really embraced winning over ideology.
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  #23  
Old 22 March 2017, 04:05 AM
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Not to imply there's any symmetry (now that we're truly through the looking glass and well into the daily horror of an alternative facts world) but the Democrats did their share of winning above policy for a long time. They elected centrists and conservatives in many races and probably paid for that in the recent election because (as much as I personally like their form of centrism) the Clintons aren't really liberals and a large liberal faction revolted through Bernie.

The real point of divergence for the GOP, IMO, was the acceptance of Tea Party (as I said, with open arms, not reluctantly). Their desire was to end the government as we know it — not just to win but to make others lose, specifically to lose everything Americans have come to expect the government to do besides keep a giant military. That's what we have now. These people dislike and deeply distrust muslims, for example, but more than that they hate the idea that the government would ever do anything for anyone, much less muslims. "Doing stuff for poor people, bad, doing stuff for artists, WTF, doing anything for muslims are you out of your mind?" (Never mind that the government was never doing anything for muslims per se. So to do less, they had to be actively putting them down. Never mind all the corporate welfare. In that sense, they differ from the republican mainstream: Corporations are not people. Therefore it's OK to do stuff for them.)
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  #24  
Old 22 March 2017, 01:55 PM
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What's your definition of a centrist? Does someone have to be left of whatever that centrist position is to be considered a true liberal? I know I've read that a lot of Americans would consider Canada's Conservative party to be centrist or even left of centre compared to their own positions. I find that pathetically laughable but then I'm not American and your views on what is liberal and what is conservative don't always seem to jibe with other countries.
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  #25  
Old 23 March 2017, 12:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
Not to imply there's any symmetry (now that we're truly through the looking glass and well into the daily horror of an alternative facts world) but the Democrats did their share of winning above policy for a long time. They elected centrists and conservatives in many races and probably paid for that in the recent election because (as much as I personally like their form of centrism) the Clintons aren't really liberals and a large liberal faction revolted through Bernie.
That's true. One of the most irritating things is how the Democratic Party keeps trying to act like they're dealing with reasonable people, keeps reaching across the aisle, and operating under "Moderate and they will like you," no matter how many times it blows up in their faces, because again, the GOP is basically a doomsday cult.

There is value in compromise and reaching across the aisle, but those strategies only work when both sides are made up of adults who, despite differing viewpoints, genuinely want to do their jobs and get stuff done. It doesn't work when one side is made up of adults and the other...I hate to repeat myself, but doomsday cult seems the most accurate way of describing the GOP.

The fact that the Democratic Party keeps falling into this trap over and over again, really makes me wonder are they just incredibly na´ve or who exactly are they representing? Because most Americans, when polled, overwhelmingly support Liberal ideas, yet for some reason, the Democratic Party persists in believing that the US is a center-right nation, thus conceding the fight before it's ever begun.
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  #26  
Old 23 March 2017, 01:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sue View Post
What's your definition of a centrist?
I don't know, Sue. Obviously there isn't a good one. But I think they've always been rather conservative fiscally. A lot of the criticism of Hillary was her conservative relationship with Wall Street.
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Does someone have to be left of whatever that centrist position is to be considered a true liberal?
I wouldn't pretend to know. There's also a fuzzy line between playing to win and compromise. A lot of what people hate about politicians is that they compromise and in order to compromise and still seem real, they blur those lines intentionally. How far is too far? I suppose it just depends on the issue and how far one thinks is too far.

(I don't consider "centrist" an insult. It seems the only way to be to get things done in a democracy.)
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  #27  
Old 23 March 2017, 06:24 AM
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One of the issues with defining "centrist" is that it's of course a function on the relative position between liberals and conservatives, which has been shifting rather rapidly apart in recent years.
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  #28  
Old 23 March 2017, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
A lot of what people hate about politicians is that they compromise . . .
Another thing that is necessary to get things done in a democracy.
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  #29  
Old 23 March 2017, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
A lot of what people hate about politicians is that they compromise
The side I don't support should compromise, not my side!
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  #30  
Old 23 March 2017, 01:37 PM
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It's hard to compromise with someone when you've spent years telling your supporters that the other side are traitors who hate America, want to persecute Christians, etc.
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  #31  
Old 24 March 2017, 02:16 AM
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That's what I keep pointing out, Lainie. Compromise and bipartisanship only work when both sides are made of mature adults who, despite differing viewpoints, genuinely want to get stuff done. It doesn't work when one side is made of mature adults who want to get stuff done, but the other side is made of doomsday cultists who will burn everything down because if they can't have it, no one can. Also said cultists believe that the other side is made up of Satanic Satan Worshippers and agreeing with that side on anything, even if it's on a discussion as to where a period should go at the end of the sentence, is proof that you are a treasonous Satanic Satan Worshipper who hates all that is good and holy.

The GOP has proven time and time again, that they're not interested in working together, that no matter how many overtures they try, they will never side with the Democrats. In fact, all that "reaching across the aisle" stuff may make the GOP hate them even more. Nobody, not even bullies, likes a toady.
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