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  #181  
Old 19 June 2017, 03:04 PM
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Candy is dandy
But liquor is quicker

(Ogden Nash. And I don't know that he ever did any such thing -- but that verse used to be considered light-heartedly funny.)

[ETA, since this wound up at the top of a standard page division: in reply to GenYus.]
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  #182  
Old 19 June 2017, 05:30 PM
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Yeah, or the feelings one gets when listening to "Have Some Madiera, M'Dear," which is an extraordinarily clever and cheerful song describing date rape (of an underage girl, yet).

I think it's not entirely unfair to draw some kind of distinction between drugging someone without their knowledge and consent, as opposed to taking advantage of someone who got intoxicated of their own accord...but I am not sure exactly how. (I suppose you could say both cases were rape, but the former has an additional crime attached; I assume there is some criminal statute about subjecting people to intoxicating drugs without their consent.)
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  #183  
Old 19 June 2017, 05:49 PM
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At least that song acknowledges that the man plying the underage girl with alcohol is vile.
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  #184  
Old 19 June 2017, 05:50 PM
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I would say it is entirely fair to draw a distinction. There are separate crimes of premeditated murder and unplanned murder.*

And to clarify my previous post. I understand the comment, I just wanted to point out how ridiculous it was that such a shift needs to be made.

ETA*: Note that this assumes that society treated rape as it treated murder. IE, no one discusses how the murder victim should have dressed less deady if he/she wanted to live. In the current society, creating such a distinction would probably lower the perceived severity of unplanned rape, not increase it for premeditated rape.
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  #185  
Old 19 June 2017, 07:04 PM
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Wow, I haven't heard that poem in a long, long time, and seeing it now makes me realize I have naively misread it for years.
I always just took it to be that candy is fine, but liquor is a better bet for having a good time. I never knew the name of the poem, so that may explain it, although I don't know that the name necessarily makes it about getting someone in bed (nefariously or otherwise). "Reflections on Ice Breaking" could be just a matter of when people first meet and need something to get conversation flowing, candy works but liquor will get people loosened up faster. Does everyone take it as a setup to rape?
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  #186  
Old 19 June 2017, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Credence View Post
Does everyone take it as a setup to rape?
Well I certainly didn't! And I still don't.
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  #187  
Old 19 June 2017, 07:25 PM
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IDK whether Ogden Nash meant it that way, but I've certainly heard it quoted by people who seemed to me be joking about getting a woman drunk so she'd have sex.
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  #188  
Old 19 June 2017, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
IDK whether Ogden Nash meant it that way, but I've certainly heard it quoted by people who seemed to me be joking about getting a woman drunk so she'd have sex.
That's about the only context I've ever heard it used in.
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  #189  
Old 19 June 2017, 07:45 PM
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But it doesn't make sense. Why even consider candy if the goal is rape? To me it's always been more of a "lots of gifts are nice but if you really want to make me happy a bottle of gin will go a lot further than a box of chocolate".
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  #190  
Old 19 June 2017, 07:49 PM
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Don't forget that rape was (and often still is) considered to be just about sex. So that reading of it would be about comparing two methods for having sex.

Regarding having people quote it: The fact that other people mean it that way doesn't mean Nash meant it that way.
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  #191  
Old 19 June 2017, 07:52 PM
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Well, the context I had most heard it used in was after someone was questioning the existence of the butterscotch and buttergin vats in Willy Wonka's chocolate factory.

As to the candy connection, I assume it is that candy was a traditional courting gift. You know, a box of candy and a bouquet of flowers kind of thing. But I think I'm coming down on it having nothing to do with that, and is more a direction for someone hosting a party with people who haven't met. Looking to break the ice for that group? Candy is dandy but liquor is quicker.
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  #192  
Old 19 June 2017, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
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But it doesn't make sense. Why even consider candy if the goal is rape? To me it's always been more of a "lots of gifts are nice but if you really want to make me happy a bottle of gin will go a lot further than a box of chocolate".
I took it as You can try dating the girl and bringing her flowers and chocolate and then sometime down the road you'll have sex with her, or you can get her drunk now and cut down on your time and effort.
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  #193  
Old 19 June 2017, 07:53 PM
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Also very few people I suspect are quoting that poem knowing the title. Without the title it's even less rapey or even a "setting the mood for sex" kind of poem. Personally I always thought it was a personal comment - as in candy makes me happy but liquor makes me happy even faster and that's the way I've always heard it used by others - well the few times I can recall anyone I know ever using it that is to say.
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  #194  
Old 19 June 2017, 08:19 PM
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I've always assumed it was a matter of lowering inhibitions (and/or impairing judgment) which meant that the (usually female) target would be more likely to say "yes" -- or at least stop saying "no" and physically resisting. Until relatively recently, this wasn't really considered 'rape' by most people, unless perhaps the victim was intoxicated to the point of semi-consciousness.

(I keep recalling an old Steve Martin joke about how he could never remember the correct order of events in seduction -- e.g., walking up to a woman at a party and saying "Hi, was it good for you, too?" or taking a woman home, sleeping with her, getting up the next morning, and then trying to get her drunk...)

I think the situation is often complicated by the fact that often both parties involved in the incident have been drinking. The one time I was myself in a situation like this, the woman involved propositioned me, and I was the one who said no (for several reasons, but one of them was that I had drunk what was for me an unprecedented amount of beer, and really had no interest in doing anything but lying down, preferably somewhere very close to a bathroom). If I had said yes, I'm not sure who, if anyone, would have been victimizing whom. Fortunately I think these days there is a trend towards acceptance that someone who is intoxicated can't give consent, and that being intoxicated yourself does not excuse you of the responsibility to recognize that; but I also think there are a lot of people who will continue to not get the message, or argue about just drunk you have to be to be incapable of consenting.
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  #195  
Old 19 June 2017, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sue View Post
But it doesn't make sense. Why even consider candy if the goal is rape?
The goal wasn't considered to be rape; it was considered to be seduction. As Darth Credence said, candy was a traditional courting gift -- not necessarily for serious courting as in I-want-to-get-married, though it might be; but just something male-you might give to female-somebody you wanted to go out with.

Getting somebody to say yes, or at least to not say no, by any means short of violence wasn't considered to be rape by most people. There's a line of difference between sweet talking somebody; giving them presents; and giving them liquor in the hope they'd say yes to something they'd say no to when sober -- but that line of difference was pretty near invisible at the time, and plenty of people didn't acknowledge it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Credence View Post
As to the candy connection, I assume it is that candy was a traditional courting gift. You know, a box of candy and a bouquet of flowers kind of thing. But I think I'm coming down on it having nothing to do with that, and is more a direction for someone hosting a party with people who haven't met. Looking to break the ice for that group? Candy is dandy but liquor is quicker.
Except offering candy to people at a party at that stage would have been kind of odd. Drinks, yes. Miscellaneous little bits of munchies in general, yes -- with or without the drinks. But specifically candy? I mean, there might have been a dish of candy among the things to nibble on. But I don't think I've ever been to a party where candy in itself was used as an icebreaker. But it was definitely used as a gift in the context of sexual relationships.

Quote:
Originally Posted by E. Q. Taft View Post
I've always assumed it was a matter of lowering inhibitions (and/or impairing judgment) which meant that the (usually female) target would be more likely to say "yes" -- or at least stop saying "no" and physically resisting. Until relatively recently, this wasn't really considered 'rape' by most people, unless perhaps the victim was intoxicated to the point of semi-consciousness.
Exactly.
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  #196  
Old 19 June 2017, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
Except offering candy to people at a party at that stage would have been kind of odd. Drinks, yes. Miscellaneous little bits of munchies in general, yes -- with or without the drinks. But specifically candy? I mean, there might have been a dish of candy among the things to nibble on. But I don't think I've ever been to a party where candy in itself was used as an icebreaker. But it was definitely used as a gift in the context of sexual relationships.
I thought of "candy" as being a stand-in for any type of munchies served at a party, and was used because it rhymes.
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  #197  
Old 19 June 2017, 10:57 PM
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I've always considered 'Candy is Dandy...' to be personal advice that also acts as innuendo. If you want to have a good time, candy works, but liquor will do the job better.
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  #198  
Old 20 June 2017, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by mbravo View Post
I took it as You can try dating the girl and bringing her flowers and chocolate and then sometime down the road you'll have sex with her, or you can get her drunk now and cut down on your time and effort.
That is how I've understood it for as long as I've been aware of that kind of innuendo. And, going by Google results, very many other people understand it that way, too.

I should say, too, that it would not have been considered rapey at the time. And I don't think it is necessarily describing rape now, but it does have a rapey vibe. Two people can mutually decide to lower their inhibitions by having a drink or two to break the ice. It would only be rape if someone drinks enough to not be able to consent.
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  #199  
Old 20 June 2017, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by erwins View Post
It would only be rape if someone drinks enough to not be able to consent.
It's borderline, IMO, if one person is deliberately supplying liquor in the hope of getting the other person to consent to something the supplier thinks they're unlikely to consent to if sober. (Drinking with somebody one thinks will consent if sober is a different thing -- as, of course, is drinking with somebody one doesn't intend to have sex with, at least not then.) Not, as you say, rape if the second person's not too drunk to consent and if a lack of consent is respected; but nevertheless not good behavior. And it carries the risk that the person will actually be over the line of too drunk to consent, as this is going to require drastically different amounts of alcohol from one person to another and even from one time to another, and the symptoms, while sometimes obvious, aren't always so.

Part of what was going on when Nash wrote that was the assumption that women were likely to feel they ought to say no even when they actually did want to have sex -- the inhibition being overcome by the booze could be seen as the social inhibition against women admitting they wanted sex, rather than there being any actual desire not to do so to overcome.

Again, I'm not accusing Nash of anything; I don't actually know anything about his personal behavior. I'm just pointing out that the social attitude towards the seriousness of such things was much different. I clearly remember routinely reading cartoons and jokes in publications as mainstream and "family-friendly" as the Reader's Digest in which male bosses chased their female secretaries around the office, the secretaries keeping the desk between them to avoid being, at a minimum, groped. The situation was supposed to be seen as funny -- and as normal behavior: that is, most people would probably have agreed that the boss was behaving badly, but would also have felt that a lot of bosses did behave like that and the secretaries just had to put up with it.
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  #200  
Old 20 June 2017, 02:00 PM
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Default It's Time to Accept That Bill Cosby Probably Won't Be Convicted

A sexual assault prosecutor from the Clinton administration explains why the comedian will likely never see the inside of a prison cell.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/i...t-be-convicted
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