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  #21  
Old 23 January 2019, 01:46 AM
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That school has an issue with their racist and other prejudicial attitudes and activities. This is known.

We can deduce that this woman is almost certainly in full concordance with those views. This is speculation.

Her calling the Israelite group Muslim could be a slip of the tongue. Or, it could be the result of something deeper in her psyche.

I am reading that Lainie thinks the school's attitudes and activities are overt enough that anyone involved with them must have the same (or very similar attitudes).

I am reading that Steve is saying that even though the school's attitudes and activities are known, we can't be sure what the woman's position actually is (either clueless or prejudiced).

I can see both points of view. And I will posit this: I've been in the unfortunate position to be coloured guilty by association* for attitudes that I do not hold. While it is cathartic to broadly paint swaths of people with a common brush, it falls down at the individual level.

For example, it is easy to say that Americans are gun loving people who are always armed, looking for a gun fight. Evidence, American laws - up to the Supreme Court, allow for more and more guns (and relaxation of other laws on the platforms of some politicians). American policy - no formal move to restrict weapons. American politics - heavily influenced by the gun lobby. Numbers of weapons - more privately owned weapons in the US than there are citizens. Social Media - many photos, memes and stories out there describing the 2nd amendment and its popular impact. The news - 2 Americans caught smuggling weapons into Canada in the past 2 weeks, using their trusted status to get the guns across the border.

Thus, an American speaks about an incident somewhere in the world, we can assume that this person is a gun loving patriot who will always push for the pro-gun agenda where they are in the world. But that is unfair. We would have to look at the person themselves, and see what their personal actions and attitudes are. One would not claim that the Parkland School survivors would fall into a gun-loving crowd, despite them being American.

So, on an individual level, it does not work.

Regardless, laying down an ad hominem argument on a fellow board member does not push the debate along.

*Way back when the board was very busy, I was labelled here as a racist misogynist because I am white and male. That was the only criteria to justify that description. I was told that I had to "prove to them" that I was neither. When I asked who the "them" was, I got no answer. I found this perplexing because as an individual, I was in a mixed race marriage. I had been (and continue to be) a Harassment Advisor for the government providing avenues for women (among other groups) to be heard when toxic work environments are discovered. But because I am a white male, I was labelled.

This is but one reason why I dislike broad brush describing people. I still fall prey to this including on this board (and have been justifiably called out on it, eg. my frustration with President Trump and his gang being ascribed to all Americans about 3 months ago). It is something I continue to work on, remembering that the monolith rarely exists in any society.
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  #22  
Old 23 January 2019, 03:17 AM
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Part of the distinction, though, is whether the group is an opt-in or opt-out group.

Nationality is generally an opt-out group and it's typically fairly hard to actually do so. You get a nationality from where you were born and you probably retain that nationality for the rest of your life.

The school is an opt-in membership. You have to voluntarily choose to send your kid there, therefore guilt by association is more logical.
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  #23  
Old 23 January 2019, 03:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UEL View Post

I am reading that Lainie thinks the school's attitudes and activities are overt enough that anyone involved with them must have the same (or very similar attitudes).
I don't see Lainie making that argument at all. How do you see her stating that?
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  #24  
Old 23 January 2019, 02:18 PM
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Oh good, I've been missing the arguments circling around exquisite parsing of posts.
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  #25  
Old 23 January 2019, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by St. Alia View Post
I don't see Lainie making that argument at all. How do you see her stating that?
Her post did.
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  #26  
Old 23 January 2019, 07:49 PM
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That was not my intent. I was commenting on C_H's post.
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  #27  
Old 23 January 2019, 08:53 PM
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As I see it, both Steve (initially) and Lainie were making points about the form of the argument of another poster.

Crocoduck hunter constructed an argument based on what he'd read, drew a first conclusion (school highly prejudiced), and then a second conclusion (parents probably also prejudiced).

Steve criticized CH's second conclusion, and accused him of jumping to conclusions based on no evidence. I think this may have been based on a largely unstated argument that, because the second premise does not follow from the first, it is entirely unsupported.

Lainie criticized the form of that argument by pointing out that CH did have evidence ("everything I've read") and that Steve might take issue with the conclusion(s) CH drew, but his argument did not appear to be based on "no evidence," at least by its own terms.

Around that point, it looks like Steve, as well as some other posters, took Lainie to be advocating for CH's position, which is not what I saw happening. I think she was taking a position about whether Steve's response to it was valid logically and/or a fair criticism. Further divergence of what each person was talking about occurred.

While I empathize with the reading comprehension responses, and no one has a duty to explain anything, it also, obviously, did not help to clarify the misunderstanding at that point. And, Steve apparently did not go back to reread and ponder what he'd got wrong about Lainie's statements.

And now we have a bunch of posts (including this one) parsing other posts. But I think it's good to try to understand each other, so I don't think these are a bad thing, necessarily.

And, if I mischaracterized your post, please explain. I do want to understand.
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  #28  
Old 23 January 2019, 10:07 PM
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erwins, you captured my intentions correctly. Thank you.
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  #29  
Old 24 January 2019, 03:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
That was not my intent. I was commenting on C_H's post.
Now, that makes a bit more sense.

My apologies if I dragged you into something you were not already involved in.
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  #30  
Old 24 January 2019, 03:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
The woman was confused about the religious beliefs of some cult. Heavily prejudiced? Jesus.
I'm really curious how you could read her statement as simply being "confused about their religious beliefs". Is "black muslim" a religious belief? Also, what does being black or muslim or "black muslim" (whatever that is) have to do with anything at all? Why would she identify them using those words? 'Cause "being confused" doesn't even come close to answering these questions.
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  #31  
Old 24 January 2019, 02:45 PM
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Not understanding their religious beliefs is entirely understandable, and would not in itself indicate prejudice. There are a lot of religious beliefs and nobody's going to know about all of them.

Leaping to the conclusion that the religious beliefs of a group behaving badly must be Muslim, when there's no evidence whatsoever indicating that, may indeed indicate prejudice. I wouldn't say it guarantees it, but it's a point in that direction. If you don't know what religion people are, then you don't know what religion they are, and you shouldn't be ascribing a religion to them, especially in the context of otherwise complaining about their behavior.

ETA: while it doesn't seem to be a formal name for the group, yes, ganzfeld, there is such a thing as "Black Muslims".
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  #32  
Old 24 January 2019, 04:07 PM
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I'm aware of the history of the 1960s (including the racist misidentification of certain groups and people). That's not what I asked.
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  #33  
Old 24 January 2019, 04:16 PM
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OK. You asked "Is "black muslim" a religious belief?" That's what I was answering. ETA: Are you saying that using the term "Black Muslim" for that particular combination of religious groups is itself a racist misidentification? Wiki didn't seem to think so; but you might be right, I don't know. There are certainly black people who are other types of Muslims; but I'm not sure whether the particular groups known by that term specifically exclude(d) people not identified as black.

Last edited by thorny locust; 24 January 2019 at 04:22 PM.
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  #34  
Old 24 January 2019, 10:01 PM
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That doesn't answer any of the questions. I don't see what saying "people used to call these various groups by that name" has to do with it. People call others lots of names. That doesn't make them religious beliefs - nor appropriate or relevant identifiers. (Also, your link does not in any way refute the that the word is a racist misindentifcation. It says "has historically been used." Yes, lots of inappropriate terms have been.)
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  #35  
Old 25 January 2019, 06:43 AM
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The silence of Nick Sandmann

Quote:
In the wake of Sandmann’s statement and the release of additional video, some have defended the Covington Catholic students. “Far from engaging in racially motivated harassment, the group of mostly white, MAGA-hat-wearing male teenagers remained relatively calm and restrained,” wrote Robby Soave at Reason.

But the increasingly contentious public conversation around the episode may be missing the point.
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  #36  
Old 25 January 2019, 12:50 PM
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What I find telling about his silence and his fixed smile is that he alleged to have remained that way because he didn't want to be goaded into a fight. He thought he was being the 'better man', so to speak.

Yet the man who he seems to think was goading him was only playing a drum.

It seems that if you're darker skinned, any kind of noise you make can be interpreted as an invitation to attack.

If somebody came up to me and starting singing hymns while I was protesting something, would it make me a hero not to punch her in the face? Of course bloody not! So why is this boy being lauded by a certain subset for not being violent? He had nothing to be violent about! The other man was not being violent either!
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  #37  
Old 25 January 2019, 02:44 PM
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Blatherskite, I think there's a lot of back-of-the-head assumptions involved.

Phillips assumed the drumming would be calming. Some people from another culture, with different back-of-head assumptions, apparently think of the drumming as aggressive. Somewhere in the back of their minds is most likely not something about, say, drum circles, but instead something about "war drums".

If the school -- for that matter, if more schools in general -- were better educating students about the varying cultures they're going to be living with, then I think more people would be able to understand that playing a drum can be equivalent to singing a hymn.

(though there are some pretty aggressive hymns, come to think of it; and certainly some aggressive hymn singers.)
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  #38  
Old 25 January 2019, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
(though there are some pretty aggressive hymns, come to think of it; and certainly some aggressive hymn singers.)
Mine eyes have seen the glory
of the coming of the lord,
He is trampling out the vintage
where the grapes of wrath are stored,
He hath loosed the fateful lightning
of His terrible swift sword,
His truth is marching on
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  #39  
Old 25 January 2019, 05:46 PM
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I keep asking myself what I would have done had I been in his position. I would not have found the drumming to be aggressive, but I would be careful not to disrespect the man drumming. Given how I had a hard time telling whether some of the kids in the background were grooving with the music or mocking it, I don't think I would have moved in anyway that could have been misinterpreted. I would have established eye contact to see if he was looking for me to move out of the way, and acted appropriately. Standing there smiling might have been an option.

I interpret the kid's actions as odd, and I have from the first time I saw the video. He's is not acting overtly negative towards the drummer. And he isn't making a positive connection either. It is difficult for me to tell what he is trying to do or 'say'.

Also keep in mind, he's a kid so he probably did not have enough life experience to understand what he should have done. I'm not sure I have that experience. He was almost certainly confused. While his smile comes off as an arrogant smirk, his smile is his smile.
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  #40  
Old 25 January 2019, 06:22 PM
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Alarm, that is indeed one that I was thinking of.
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