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  #181  
Old 13 October 2017, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
Especially when you're just firing indiscriminately into a large crowd.
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Originally Posted by E. Q. Taft View Post
Yeah, if he had been trying to hit a specific person, or even a small group, those calculations would be a lot more important.
But he did have point targets he was trying to hit.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/10/us/las...nds/index.html

He attempted to fire incendiary rounds at a fuel tank visible from the hotel. This would require accurate calculation (not that those rounds would work on making an explosion) as even a slight misalignment of the muzzle would result in a missed shot.

Perhaps those calculations were for point targets.
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  #182  
Old 13 October 2017, 10:01 PM
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Yes, they think he was shooting at the fuel tanks from the 2nd window, with a different weapon. The 2nd window was apparently a better vantage point for the fuel tanks.

This may have contributed to the belief some had that there were 2 people shooting.
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  #183  
Old 14 October 2017, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
it kind of goes with the territory of politics. [ . . . ] When the other side is on the ropes, the natural instinct is to go for the KO and they've honed these tactics over the past 30 years, bringing it right into new media.
It kind of goes with the current territory of USA politics; but I do remember times when, after the election, the mood was a whole lot more 'OK, the election's over, now let's all come together and try to deal with the situation the best that we can' -- and that wasn't just a noise meaning 'we're now going to insist that the losers ought to agree with us about everything'.
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  #184  
Old 15 October 2017, 12:15 AM
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Yes, it comes and goes. Not surprisingly, it's the people who run on platforms of working with the other party who are best at it and those who run on burn it down and lock 'em up turn out to be shiddy lawmakers.
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  #185  
Old 15 October 2017, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by E. Q. Taft View Post
What gets me about the "victimization" on the right is how often it just seems so...twisted. The arguments about same-sex marriage, for example: I kept hearing about how we were "forcing" our values on them. Uh...you realize you can still marry a member of the opposite sex, right? I would certainly be opposed to mandatory same-sex marriage....
Feel a need to reiterate: it's not enough for them to have everything, if they can't have the tears of losers as well.

Though the argument in Taft's quote seems a common thing on the Christian Right or really just religious fundamentalists in general. It's not enough for them to be holy; they simply can't be properly holy, so long as there are other people out there, having fun and flashing their oh-so seductive ankles.

Hence the constant lobbying against GLBT people. They simply can't keep loudly denouncing GLBT people and letting their denomination continue to refuse to marry same-sex couples; they just can't be holy, so long as those same-sex couples are out there, getting married and :gasp: being normal contributing members of society.

Though when it comes to trans people, the Right's whinging is even more appalling. Trans people have the highest rate of suicide and are more likely to be the victims of hate crimes than any other minority group, but I'm sure being able to use the other bathroom totally makes up for it.
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  #186  
Old 15 October 2017, 01:04 AM
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It's both terrifying and sad that the POTUS is speaking at anti-gay rallies and the second in line is one of the most extremist anti-LGBT politicians in the past few decades but, for the most part, they are losing that battle. The US now has some of the more liberal laws about same-sex marriage compared to the rest of the world. There's still a lot to do but they did lose that fight - at least for now. And, frankly, I think it would be a bit dumb of the progressives who have driven that change to say "well, we got what we wanted, why ask for more?" at this point.

That's almost the reverse of right's situation on the right to bear arms.
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  #187  
Old 16 October 2017, 05:25 PM
jimmy101_again jimmy101_again is offline
 
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Snipers don't typically use calculation to set up their shots, neither do artillery gunners, which shoot orders of magnitude farther and have much more complex interactions to deal with. There are tables (and more recently computer based tables) that have what the shooter needs. For real accuracy multiple shots are taken and each shot is corrected based on the previous shot.

In the LV case there is basically a single correction that would be used for all of the shots into the crowd. It really isn't all that complex and hunters regularly do that type of setup.

One of the main original use of "computers" (human, mechanical and electronic) was to generate firing tables.
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  #188  
Old 16 October 2017, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by jimmy101_again View Post
Snipers don't typically use calculation to set up their shots, neither do artillery gunners, which shoot orders of magnitude farther and have much more complex interactions to deal with.
Not quite. I am an artillery officer and we do calculations for every shot. There are 17 variables that have an impact on a projectile's flight. We don't just shoot in a direction and then adjust the fall of shot from the impact. We calculate our first round in anticipation of hitting the target with the first round. Given the possibility that some of the variables are hard to nail down or change frequently (wind direction being one) the rounds frequently miss, but land close, and we adjust fall of shot then too.

Snipers nowadays do also have computers. Some snipers do use it. Some don't. I've provided fire support for snipers, but am not a sniper. So, I can't speak too much about how the sniper computer is used.
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  #189  
Old 16 October 2017, 11:36 PM
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If you do calculations, you are a computer, i.e., you compute. And for the sake of your troops, I hope you are good at it. Well, were good at it.
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  #190  
Old 17 October 2017, 01:48 AM
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Originally Posted by RichardM View Post
Well, were good at it.
That's me. Were.



I came up in the old, old school where the backup to a computer is a human with the log tables, slide rules, trigonometry and wind vector tables. Now, thankfully, the backup to a computer is another computer.
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  #191  
Old 17 October 2017, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UEL View Post
Not quite. I am an artillery officer and we do calculations for every shot. There are 17 variables that have an impact on a projectile's flight. We don't just shoot in a direction and then adjust the fall of shot from the impact. We calculate our first round in anticipation of hitting the target with the first round. Given the possibility that some of the variables are hard to nail down or change frequently (wind direction being one) the rounds frequently miss, but land close, and we adjust fall of shot then too.

Snipers nowadays do also have computers. Some snipers do use it. Some don't. I've provided fire support for snipers, but am not a sniper. So, I can't speak too much about how the sniper computer is used.
Do you actually do calculations or do you use a table, or a custom slide-rule, or a computer table/calculation? Any number of variables can be included in a set of tables. My dad was mortar officer in Korea and he says 90% of aiming was the shooting tables and the targeting stakes and the last 10% was correction after the first shot. Actual calculations were not generally used since since they weren't needed and tended to be too slow to do when directly supporting infantry at a few hundred yards range. Mortars can't usually see there target (like artillery) and so the calculation is much more complex than it is for a rifleman so tables are almost always used.

Indeed, in NV, the skills of a sniper weren't needed since the whole goal of a sniper is to hit the target with one shot. In NV he had a couple hundred shots and lots of feedback on where his rounds were hitting. No calculation was really necessary, at least not beyond what any trained rifleman would do to take into account the range and down angle of the shots.

A "calculation" would involve paper and pencil. A computer can do the calculation but often it is much faster and more accurate to have the computer simply store the pre-calculated tables.

The US tax code has 9 zillion tax brackets (if you believe the Turnip) and they may reduce that to three. But the number of brackets has zero affect on how people do their tax calculation since all the brackets are encoded in the single tax table that the majority of Americans use.
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  #192  
Old 18 October 2017, 12:37 AM
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Steampunk sliderules. I mean, if you're going to be primitive you might as well have some fun with it.

Last edited by ganzfeld; 18 October 2017 at 12:47 AM.
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  #193  
Old 18 October 2017, 01:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy101_again View Post
Do you actually do calculations or do you use a table, or a custom slide-rule, or a computer table/calculation? Any number of variables can be included in a set of tables.
We calculate. For example, when doing manual calculations for shooting, we have to calculate for the effects of air pressure, wind direction, wind velocity and humidity. It is time consuming when done manually, but we teach it manually to get the student to understand the effects of meteorological conditions on the projectile in motion.

Quote:
My dad was mortar officer in Korea and he says 90% of aiming was the shooting tables and the targeting stakes and the last 10% was correction after the first shot.
I think that is the difference there . Mortars are notoriously inaccurate and it was only in 2003 that we in Canada changed the calculation of mortar data to be the same as the artillery (it was then that the artillery took over mortars, until then it was an infantry weapon system).

I am not sure how American mortars operate. I do know that American Mortarmen are the Sons of St Barbara, just like we artillery pieces. Your Dad is one of the chosen few!

Quote:
Actual calculations were not generally used since since they weren't needed and tended to be too slow to do when directly supporting infantry at a few hundred yards range. Mortars can't usually see there target (like artillery) and so the calculation is much more complex than it is for a rifleman so tables are almost always used.
The tables provide data, but the data still has to be used in calculations. In the current firing tables, there are 10 separate tables full of data, of which Table F is the one with much of the data. But the other tables contain information that affect the ballistic trajectory.

Some of the information that we have to calculate for:

Projectile weight
Projectile point of function
Projectile ballistic profile
Propellant lot factors
Propellant temperature
Wind direction (through the length of the trajectory)
Wind velocity (through the length of the trajectory)
Humidity (through the length of the trajectory)
Air Pressure (through the length of the trajectory)
Air Temperature (through the length of the trajectory)
Difference in Altitude from Med Datum Plane
Target altitude (difference from gun altitude)
Rotation of the earth
Projectile Drift
Projectile Jump
Barrel Wear

The meteorology ones are now completely calculated by computer. This list does not even contain the requirements for target location, survey errors on the gunline and other non-standard conditions.

The other variables are also calculated in a computer, but double checked with a manual double check.

Looking at that list, there are a bunch that we don't use with the mortar because of the errors inherent in the system. In fact, the only ones that are consistently used are target altitude, projectile weight, projectile point of function and propellant lot factors.
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  #194  
Old 18 October 2017, 06:29 PM
jimmy101_again jimmy101_again is offline
 
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Like I said; if you need to do an actual calculation then you are too slow for mortar support and certainly for small arms fire. Back to the original point of a rifleman, the calculation is highly complex but all the complexity is basically ignored or aggregated into a slide rule or table.
Ammo, weapon, delta altitude is all that is usually needed for a most rifle shots. Firing into a crowd of thousands of people, even at a range of a couple hundred yards, doesn't even take that.
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