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  #41  
Old 13 November 2017, 08:06 PM
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Icon220 #MeAt14 Reminds Internet 14-Year-Olds Are Innocent, Immature, Unable To Consent

As Moore has fought back against his accusers, so too has a movement of Twitter users refused to accept his denials. They have begun posting pictures of themselves at 14 years of age, to ask the rhetorical question: Should this child be romantically involved with a 32-year-old man?

Meet the #MeAt14 hashtag.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...ble-to-consent
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  #42  
Old 13 November 2017, 08:10 PM
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Default A Fifth Woman Accuses Senate Candidate Roy Moore of Sexual Misconduct

The new accuser, Beverly Young Nelson, told a news conference in New York that Mr. Moore attacked her when she was 16 and he was a prosecutor in Etowah County, Ala. Ms. Nelson was represented at the news conference by Gloria Allred, a lawyer who has championed victims of sexual harassment.

“I tried fighting him off, while yelling at him to stop, but instead of stopping, he began squeezing my neck attempting to force my head onto his crotch,” Ms. Nelson said in a statement she issued at the news conference. She said Mr. Moore warned her that “no one will believe you” if she told anyone about the encounter in his car.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/13/u...ma-senate.html
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  #43  
Old 13 November 2017, 08:17 PM
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If the new allegations by Ms. Nelson are accurate, that's a much more clear-cut case of premeditated sexual abuse. You might try to explain away the others that have been described as happening with at least the young woman's tacit consent -- if the women had not been underage, there wouldn't be much of a case. This one is different.

However, I have to confess that also makes me slightly more inclined to be skeptical about it. It doesn't seem to be in character with what the other women have described; and the circumstances of the disclosure are quite different. I hope it's not a complete fabrication; among other reasons, if that were revealed, it would throw a lot more doubt on the previous allegations, which to me seem fairly solid, assuming (as I do) that the Washington Post is being essentially accurate in describing how they got the story.
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  #44  
Old 13 November 2017, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
I'm not necessarily expecting an answer. I'm only mildly curious as to how people go about explaining that one away.
It’s a long process that is actually documented in the New Testament. A theologian could better explain it, but as I understand it, there are different sets of laws throughout the Bible, depending on the time and place. Don’t eat that fruit, for example, was the first and only law until it was broken. Then came the Ten Commandments, foundational principles of behavior like “don’t kill” and “don’t lie” that are still seen as relevant by believers today, and then came books and books of municipal and religious laws that structured the ancient nation of Israel and the religion of Judaism. It was impossible for anyone to always keep all the laws, so regular animal sacrifices were made to atone for the breaking of them. Then Jesus came, kept the law (thus “fulfilling it,” as your verse says) and sacrificed himself to redeem humanity once and for all from the law that condemned them.

The book of Acts says when gentiles first started converting into the early christian church, a rift developed between Jewish believers over the very question you’re asking: whether christians from other countries needed to begin to keep the religious and municipal laws of Judaism. Peter and Paul were elders who famously took the stance that gentiles did not need to follow Old Testament laws to be a Christian, because they were not under the old convenient between God and the Jews, but under the new covenant between Jesus and mankind.

After that, in the letters of Paul in the New Testament, he laid out guidelines for church government and Christian behavior. These are an altogether different set of principles from “the law.”

There now. Not complicated at all.
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  #45  
Old 13 November 2017, 10:05 PM
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Aside, of course, from the complication of the question of whether Peter and Paul were actually doing what Jesus had in mind.

(But, if you think that's complicated, you've never read Jewish theologians arguing about what a passage means.)
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  #46  
Old 14 November 2017, 12:06 AM
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I have not. I’ll take your word for it.
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  #47  
Old 14 November 2017, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by E. Q. Taft View Post

However, I have to confess that also makes me slightly more inclined to be skeptical about it. It doesn't seem to be in character with what the other women have described; and the circumstances of the disclosure are quite different. I hope it's not a complete fabrication; among other reasons, if that were revealed, it would throw a lot more doubt on the previous allegations, which to me seem fairly solid, assuming (as I do) that the Washington Post is being essentially accurate in describing how they got the story.

I was rather skeptical about the whole thing at the onset: was this woman really truly assaulted or is she just cashing in on a current fad? I hope it's not the latter for obvious reasons. Or, is she looking at a harmless gesture in a new light? But now other women are coming forth, and then there's this whole thing about him dating a 14 year old when he was in his early 30s?! So...? And Ewww!

Dawn--Jesus loves the little children and so does Roy Moore--Storm
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  #48  
Old 14 November 2017, 01:14 PM
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I was rather skeptical about the whole thing at the onset: was this woman really truly assaulted or is she just cashing in on a current fad?
I wonder, though, how exactly are accusers "cashing in"? Unless someone desperately needs attention, mostly what women are going to get out of this is questioning of their character and reputations, derision, death threats, and doxxing. It would seem to me that the best they could receive is people saying, "I believe her," maybe some interviews on talk shows, and perhaps a book deal down the line.

To me, none of that would seem worth it if the claims weren't true, especially with going against the kinds of people who are currently supporting the accused.

Reading around online about what is going on, most are expecting an epic backlash against women who come forward (all it will take, I think, is one false accusation to discredit the whole movement). I think that so many women are coming forward right now because they're expecting to continue not to be believed in the future.
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  #49  
Old 14 November 2017, 01:23 PM
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(all it will take, I think, is one false accusation to discredit the whole movement).
That's what worries me.
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  #50  
Old 14 November 2017, 01:24 PM
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https://www.axios.com/report-locals-...509214811.html

Multiple people, including lawyers and police officers, remember being told that then--assistant district attorney Roy Moore would troll the mall for teenaged girls. He was rumored to have been banned, but that hasn't been confirmed because the ban lists don't go back that far.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-...e-gadsden-mall
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  #51  
Old 14 November 2017, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
What's the "therefore" doing in there, then?

I'm not necessarily expecting an answer. I'm only mildly curious as to how people go about explaining that one away.
I'll try to provide a brief explanation of how I understand it (as an evangelical Christian).

Jesus came to fulfill the (old testament) law, as the promised Messiah to the Jews. The Jews rejected him as the Messiah, and this started a new era of grace (the new testament), open to everyone which replaced the "law" era of the old testament. From the perspective of the new "grace" era, the law was there to show us that people could never live up the the requirements of the law, and a new grace based approach was needed.

The Matthews verse speaks to the time before Jesus was rejected as Messiah, the Hebrews verse to the time after.

I know that answers like this probably leave more questions unanswered than they answer, but it's hard to explain comprehensive theology in two paragraphs
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  #52  
Old 14 November 2017, 03:04 PM
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Seems we have two different conversations here.
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  #53  
Old 14 November 2017, 03:18 PM
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By the way, I mentioned lawyers and police officers specifically not because they would necessarily be more trustworthy, but because it seems significant to me that they had heard about it. The accounts come from people who were teenagers or young adults at the time, who heard about him bothering their peers -- two of Moore's accusers met him at this mall -- and also from people connected with the DA's office and the police department.
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  #54  
Old 14 November 2017, 03:40 PM
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I'm just very leery of attention seekers; I have no use for anybody who makes it harder for true victims to come forward and speak about their ordeals. When I heard from the first accuser in this and other recent cases, I said, let's see where this goes. Then came another. And another. Okay, there is some serious stuff hitting the fan--these people don't know each other and they're all saying the same thing. This is....revolting. I'm very lucky in that I've never been victimized, nor have I ever known any victim of such harassment. I consider myself lucky.

Here is Reason's take on Moore; it says pretty much what we've been saying.
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  #55  
Old 14 November 2017, 03:48 PM
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Thanks to Roy Moore and his defenders, I found myself agreeing with Jonah Goldberg yesterday.
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  #56  
Old 14 November 2017, 03:53 PM
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Thanks to Roy Moore and his defenders, I found myself agreeing with Jonah Goldberg yesterday.


That's OK; I sometimes find myself agreeing with those I would normally disagree with.
According to the link I posted, even Breitbart is having second thoughts.
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  #57  
Old 14 November 2017, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Ellestar View Post
Reading around online about what is going on, most are expecting an epic backlash against women who come forward (all it will take, I think, is one false accusation to discredit the whole movement).
I think (hope) that right now it would take more than that. There are so many credible testimonies and so many men who have admitted to or at least shuffled their feet over accusations, that I think our society is realizing how badly people in power have been behaving.

What really scares me is the possibility that, in spite of all this, Weinstein and his ilk are able to fight the system and walk away without jail time, like Cosby did. If they rise from the ashes, we’ll be communicating to all the amature harassers out there that you can get away with a whole lot more.
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  #58  
Old 14 November 2017, 07:28 PM
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E. Q. Taft E. Q. Taft is offline
 
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It seems unlikely that Moore will face any jail time, since all of this seems to have happened 30-40 years in the past; I assume the statute of limitations has him covered, unless there's something more recent we haven't heard about yet.

Weinstein is another matter -- while many of the reports go back quite a ways, it doesn't sound like his behavior changed at any point.
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  #59  
Old 15 November 2017, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by E. Q. Taft View Post
I wonder it some of them are thinking (particularly since the old-guard leadership like McConnell don't much care for Moore in the first place) that they can let him get elected, securing the seat -- and then expel him from the Senate (which they can do with a 2/3rds vote, and they may assume that most if not all Democrats would support). Then the (Republican) governor of Alabama would appoint a replacement who is still a solid party vote, but not a (known) insane pedophile.
Another (similar) thought - maybe even Roy knows he'll never see the actual Senate floor, so the plan is for him to be elected, then resign on his own, allowing the Republican governor to select his replacement.

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Dawn--Jesus loves the little children and so does Roy Moore--Storm
Love this! Wait a minute, didn't you just replace Michael Jackson with Roy Moore?
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  #60  
Old 15 November 2017, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Winston O'Boogie View Post
Another (similar) thought - maybe even Roy knows he'll never see the actual Senate floor, so the plan is for him to be elected, then resign on his own, allowing the Republican governor to select his replacement.
Let's go a step further. Moore wins the election. The Republicans vote to have him removed, thereby making at least some inroads to being a group that stands up to sexual assault. The Democrats would have to vote along with them, with nothing in exchange, because otherwise the Rs can claim that they stood up to sexual assault, but the Democrats either didn't care or decided it was OK if they could score political points off of it. Sessions steps down, so that the governor of Alabama can appoint him as the temporary Senator. Trump appoints a new AG that doesn't recuse himself from anything and promptly tanks the Mueller investigation. Sessions wins the seat in the next special election for it.
I don't believe this is an actual plan. But I could see it being the actual result.
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