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  #61  
Old 25 September 2017, 03:09 PM
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GenYus234 GenYus234 is offline
 
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FETA: The able bodied could have evacuated, but the old or infirm or disabled may not have been able to. And the slow speed of the fire could have actually resulted in less evacuations. One article talked about how in multiple instances, Londoners went to sleep during the time of the fire thinking their houses were safe, only to wake up to their house on fire.

Death recording would have depended on either finding remains or cross checking records of missing people with records of relocated people. The heat of the fire and the destruction of many buildings would have destroyed or buried many remains (in some places the fire was hot enough to melt ceramic, far hotter than the temperatures of a crematorium). Clearing of rubble began 3 months later, hardly enough time to sift through 13,000 destroyed buildings looking for the bones of potential victims.

Cross checking victims would have required both accurate records of inhabitants of buildings and carefully compiled lists of the evacuees at the various locations. The London Hearth Tax record would have been a great source for the former, but that survey was not complete and would have been missing recent inhabitants and those who refused to answer. Parish records of inhabitants would have probably been destroyed either when the church burned or when St Paul's burned. Detailed records of who was at which camp would have been nearly impossible to take due to the ad hoc nature of most of those refuges.

A later survey would find that London's population had decreased by around 25%, a few hundred or thousand deaths in the fire could have easily gone unnoticed in that large of a population loss.

This Telegraph article talks about how missing records and cremated bodies could have resulted in hundreds of unrecorded deaths (granted, that is less that I supposed, but it points out how the official death toll could be understating the truth).

History author Neil Hanson estimates that up to several thousand people could have perished in the fire. (I provided two links to his claim as I'm not sure how well his research is. Both the Smithsonian and the New World Encyclopedia think it his claim has enough value to cite it.)

ETA: tl;dr: Obviously there is no way to prove that more people were killed in the fire, my conclusion is based on how easily it would have been for many deaths to have been overlooked plus the very unlikely possibility that only 6 (or 16) deaths resulted from such a large fire in such a crowded city.

Last edited by GenYus234; 25 September 2017 at 03:37 PM.
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  #62  
Old 25 September 2017, 06:51 PM
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ganzfeld ganzfeld is offline
 
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First linked by erwins:
Quote:
Originally Posted by EveningStandard
Responding to concerns from MPs over fire safety in tower blocks, Mr Javid said on Monday "literally hundreds of fire doors were missing".
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...-a3573551.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
Makes you wonder if someone was stealing fire doors or something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaboe Muffinchucker View Post
Probably not. They were probably removed for convenience (at least some of them).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASL View Post
What do they make fire doors out of anyways? Steel? Heavy wood? You'd be surprised what a good solid hunk of scrap metal can be worth.
"Missing" in this case simply means "not present". It doesn't imply they were ever installed. (I realise that this is an old thread but as long as we're talking about the number of people who died in another century, we might as well mention the facts directly related to the OP story.)
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  #63  
Old 26 September 2017, 02:10 PM
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Seaboe Muffinchucker Seaboe Muffinchucker is offline
 
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While it might be true they were never installed, this quote
Quote:
"The estimate by Camden Council itself is they need at least 1,000 fire doors because they were missing from those five blocks."
implies that there were door frames. This implies to me that they may have been installed, once upon a time.

This quote
Quote:
Labour's Karen Buck, of Westminster North, asked Mr Javid if he has the legal powers to require leaseholders to install fire doors.
is, IMO, pretty scary.

Seaboe
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  #64  
Old 27 September 2017, 12:01 AM
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hoitoider hoitoider is offline
 
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This is what I was thinking might've happened:

Quote:
some residents had replaced original entrance doors with decorative non fire-rated front doors

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...five-years-ago
The doors should also have had weatherstripping or something to keep smoke out, even in an interior corridor. The replacement doors probably didn't.
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