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  #41  
Old 08 September 2015, 12:40 AM
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I think calling somebody what they want to be called is a different topic from cultural appropriation nor do I think its something that is hotly debated much among educated people.
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  #42  
Old 08 September 2015, 01:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Avril View Post
If you're being told you have to give up your livelihood (a la Izzy) then it does pick your pocket.
I don't know if you mean Iggy and I don't know enough about her rapping to know whether such criticisms have any merit but I do know that if (g)you become a rap artist and you can't take a little criticism, you're probably in the wrong business.
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  #43  
Old 08 September 2015, 01:47 AM
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Yeah, or you just want to sing without facing stupid criticism.
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  #44  
Old 08 September 2015, 01:55 AM
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don't do it professionally, then. Or in public.
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  #45  
Old 08 September 2015, 02:14 AM
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don't do it professionally, then. Or in public.
Why not? A white woman who wants to sing rap shouldn't do it publicly if she doesn't want to be accused of "appropriation"? That's pretty ridiculous.
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  #46  
Old 08 September 2015, 02:17 AM
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The reason I roll my eyes whenever anyone says cultural appropriation is that it in fact impedes understanding. Yes, dialogue is important to work through problems. But crying cultural appropriation is basically saying "You're white so I say you can't do that and will never understand. Don't even try." Crying "cultural appropriation" has become a way to shut down dialogue, just shorthand for "I'm right and you're wrong, end of discussion."

In fact, I'd say "cultural appropriation" and "privilege" are becoming to the left what "socialism" and "sharia" are to the right. Totally divorced from their original meaning and now only used as shorthand for "whenever I don't get my way".

And to answer ganzfield, yes I would feel bad about your grandmother's shins. I'd apologize for my grandfather's actions and say he was a terrible person. But beyond an apology to your grandmother I wouldn't owe you anything.
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  #47  
Old 08 September 2015, 02:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
While I'll concede that sometimes people who cry "Cultural Appropriation!" go too far, at the same time, when it comes to stuff like bindis and Native American headdresses, I'm on the side of the Indians/Native Americans.
The thing is, all cultures are different, and some are more protective or exclusionary than others.

I lived in Nepal for two years in a Hindu culture, and they always seemed happy to see elements of their culture and religion used by others. From what I saw, I doubt the average Hindu would be the least bit offended by a young white American woman wearing a bindi. I mean, these are people who mix Christian, Jewish, and Muslim symbiology in with the the traditional Hindu and Bhuddist symbols on the temples and stupas. Many of them have very universal ideas about the nature of their Godhead.

The American Indian symbiology is different, I have met many who are offended by the use of such symbols by non-Indians.
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  #48  
Old 08 September 2015, 02:35 AM
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Art criticism is a legitimate form of expression, too. (g)You can criticize the critics for criticizing if you want. I won't call you on how hypocritical that sounds; It might have merit at times. But let's not take it to the inanity of comparing it to censorship or (wtf) segregation - or depriving someone of a livelihood! Critics have a livelihood too. Not to mention free speech.

Also, this is particularly stupid criticism of critiques of rap, an art which started as criticism - some of it criticism of the exact kind of appropriation we're talking about. So it's like "whu??" when people act like that very kind of criticism is wrong if it's about rap itself. That's what rap is about! (Now, the really classy rap acts weren't afraid to take that back on themselves - so we have that classic music video with Aerosmith and Run-DMC which seems to bring up the issue of the fact that rap itself appropriated quite a bit. It's not always aimed at others.)

I have a lot of sympathy for people who just want to take their faux bellydancing lessons in private and be left alone. And on the public arts side, we have to admit that appropriation is not always a bad thing. We wouldn't have modern jazz or rock or so many other great arts without it. Blue festivals are full of white people. No one really complains that much. (I'm sure some have so no cites please; I've been to these festivals and no one is protesting.) But if they did, the artists have to take the criticism in stride. Art criticism has been a good thing for the arts. I think the fact that so much is said on the Internet and microblogs and so forth has really improved art. Artists are still trying to find a way to deal with it but they're making some of the best art we've ever seen, IMO.
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  #49  
Old 08 September 2015, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
The thing is, all cultures are different, and some are more protective or exclusionary than others.

I lived in Nepal for two years in a Hindu culture, and they always seemed happy to see elements of their culture and religion used by others. From what I saw, I doubt the average Hindu would be the least bit offended by a young white American woman wearing a bindi. I mean, these are people who mix Christian, Jewish, and Muslim symbiology in with the the traditional Hindu and Bhuddist symbols on the temples and stupas. Many of them have very universal ideas about the nature of their Godhead.

The American Indian symbiology is different, I have met many who are offended by the use of such symbols by non-Indians.
Exactly. But the cultural appropriation people would have you believe that all cultures everywhere are secret clubs who feel physical pain if an outsider even looks at their culture for too long. And if you try to tell them that's as ridiculous as saying someone in the US would feel that way about someone in another culture wearing cowboy boots and blue jeans and eating a hot dog they'll say you just don't get it/are a racist.
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  #50  
Old 08 September 2015, 02:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Coughdrops View Post
[...] someone in another culture wearing cowboy boots and blue jeans and eating a hot dog they'll say you just don't get it/are a racist.
I don't think you're a racist but, yep, you don't get it. Even the OP admits that not all appropriation is created equal.
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  #51  
Old 08 September 2015, 02:56 AM
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
I don't know if you mean Iggy and I don't know enough about her rapping to know whether such criticisms have any merit but I do know that if (g)you become a rap artist and you can't take a little criticism, you're probably in the wrong business.
Sorry, yes, I did mean Iggy, and in context it was clear I meant that demanding she give up rap would result in picking her pocket if she did it, rather than "nobody should ever be criticized for anything ever." It was a response to the idea that if someone is offended, you just stop, and it doesn't hurt you. But it would have negative consequences for someone like Iggy to just stop.
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  #52  
Old 08 September 2015, 03:13 AM
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I don't see where anyone suggested she give up music or even rap.

Zimmerman went a bit far and I think (from the little I know of this music) she probably missed the mark on this particular case (especially her title - but we know headlines). However, she's talking about Iggy's style and content, and, yes, background. She's not demanding Iggy give up being an artist altogether. It's not a bad piece and she tries to address the issue strongly while acknowledging it's a tricky one.

So I think reacting to that as "OMG segregation! Reverse racism!" etc (which I know you aren't doing Avril) is facepalmingly overreacting. To the OPs credit, it didn't go quite that far. Still, I think it misses this point as well.
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  #53  
Old 08 September 2015, 03:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
I don't see where anyone suggested she give up music or even rap.
Yeah, me neither.
Quote:
I don't know if you mean Iggy and I don't know enough about her rapping to know whether such criticisms have any merit but I do know that if (g)you become a rap artist and you can't take a little criticism, you're probably in the wrong business.
Quote:
don't do it professionally, then. Or in public.
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  #54  
Old 08 September 2015, 03:30 AM
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Roll eyes

That would be such a suggestion if there were any indication that she couldn't take criticism. As far as I can tell, she has no difficulty taking it at all. (If her lyrics are any indication, she revels in it.) So, no.
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  #55  
Old 08 September 2015, 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Coughdrops View Post
And if you try to tell them that's as ridiculous as saying someone in the US would feel that way about someone in another culture wearing cowboy boots and blue jeans and eating a hot dog they'll say you just don't get it/are a racist.
Do you see any difference, though? Can you understand why someone from an oppressed or disparaged culture would feel frustration while someone from a lauded and glamorized culture wouldn't?
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  #56  
Old 08 September 2015, 07:15 AM
Coughdrops Coughdrops is offline
 
 
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Originally Posted by Little Pink Pill View Post
Do you see any difference, though? Can you understand why someone from an oppressed or disparaged culture would feel frustration while someone from a lauded and glamorized culture wouldn't?
Maybe. Then again they might be more annoyed if their culture is treated as "other", because so often that translates to "inferior and not worth preserving".

When a culture is imitated by the more powerful group it can mean that the powerful group sees something admirable and worth preserving in it. The alternative throughout most of history was the deliberate and often nearly complete destruction of the less powerful culture. Examples of this destruction would be the Aztecs and other indigenous cultures after their conquest by Spain, and Aboriginal cultures in Australia .
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  #57  
Old 08 September 2015, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Coughdrops View Post
When a culture is imitated by the more powerful group it can mean that the powerful group sees something admirable and worth preserving in it.
Wow. OK, I don't know where to begin with this kind of condescension. Sort of like we like your Mona Lisa so we've copied it to postcards and we might even let you let us keep it around.
Quote:
The alternative throughout most of history was the deliberate and often nearly complete destruction of the less powerful culture. Examples of this destruction would be the Aztecs and other indigenous cultures after their conquest by Spain, and Aboriginal cultures in Australia .
I can't even get what you're trying to say here. At least, I hope I'm not getting it. I hope you don't mean that since annihilation of a "less powerful" culture (which in the example you gave simply means militarily less powerful) used to happen quite often, then... People whose culture survives as some kind of BS mascot to their conquerors should somehow be happy?? I'm trying to think how this couldn't be an extremely disgusting sentiment. Really trying.

On a personal note, it's hard for me to believe this is the same Coughdrops in the other thread. This is sort of like saying gay people would be happy to have any freedom at all rather than freedom to marry because they used to be executed.
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  #58  
Old 08 September 2015, 11:24 AM
Coughdrops Coughdrops is offline
 
 
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
Wow. OK, I don't know where to begin with this kind of condescension. Sort of like we like your Mona Lisa so we've copied it to postcards and we might even let you let us keep it around. I can't even get what you're trying to say here. At least, I hope I'm not getting it. I hope you don't mean that since annihilation of a "less powerful" culture (which in the example you gave simply means militarily less powerful) used to happen quite often, then... People whose culture survives as some kind of BS mascot to their conquerors should somehow be happy?? I'm trying to think how this couldn't be an extremely disgusting sentiment. Really trying.

On a personal note, it's hard for me to believe this is the same Coughdrops in the other thread. This is sort of like saying gay people would be happy to have any freedom at all rather than freedom to marry because they used to be executed.
I'm almost sure I'm the same person.

It wasn't meant to imply any of that. It was meant to counter the sentiment that anytime a dominant culture takes on an aspect of another culture it is done with malicious intent to demean the other culture. "By golly we'll show those Muslims! Let's steal their algebra! Don't forget to swipe the concept of zero!"

Many times the thing being shared is useful, or is a better way to do things, or something that didn't exist in the dominant culture before. This is cultural exchange. Only recently did some people decide it was somehow a bad thing and start calling it "cultural appropriation" and decrying it as paternalistic. When all most of it is is one group of people seeing another group of people doing something and saying "Hey that's pretty cool. Can I try?"

And yes I am excluding deliberate racist and cultural caricatures of course.
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  #59  
Old 08 September 2015, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Why not? A white woman who wants to sing rap shouldn't do it publicly if she doesn't want to be accused of "appropriation"? That's pretty ridiculous.
Anyone who doesn't want to face criticism of their work, stupid and otherwise, should avoid singing in public, especially professionally. It's part of the package. The idea that it can be avoided is laughable, hence the .
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  #60  
Old 08 September 2015, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Coughdrops View Post
Exactly. But the cultural appropriation people would have you believe that all cultures everywhere are secret clubs who feel physical pain if an outsider even looks at their culture for too long.
Cite, please?

And, in particular, cite that everyone, or even the majority of those, talking about cultural appropriation thinks this?

You're attacking a strawman.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Coughdrops View Post
And yes I am excluding deliberate racist and cultural caricatures of course.
What about accidental ones?

Does it only count, to you, if the intention was deliberately malignant?

And at what point, if someone's had it pointed out to them that they're perpetuating a racist/cultural caricature, does their continuing to do so become classed as deliberate? -- though it sounds to me as if you're objecting to anyone's pointing it out in the first place.
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