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  #41  
Old 24 March 2014, 03:02 PM
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I don't know about Canada, but I think (though I'm not a lawyer) the inspector cannot penalize a restaurant for obeying the ADA.
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  #42  
Old 24 March 2014, 03:33 PM
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I remember being at a very busy shopping mall just after Christmas a few years ago, seeing service dogs (in vests) being trained to be in very busy areas. As I'm a sucker for dogs, I walked over and spoke to them about it. They told me that the dogs had to complete a sit/stay with people milling about - the handlers doing their best to keep people (especially children) from disturbing the dogs who were being trained. The ultimate "test" they told me, was that they dog had to sit/stay and not eat a cheeseburger placed right in front of it. Now *that* is something that no "fake" service dog would ever be able to do - it is, in my opinion, some pretty advanced training.

Here's a question - are any service dogs treated as "purse dogs"? What I mean is, are any service dogs ever carried around? FWIW, the legitimate ones I have seen - for one reason or another - all walked around on their own.
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  #43  
Old 24 March 2014, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hero_Mike View Post
The ultimate "test" they told me, was that they dog had to sit/stay and not eat a cheeseburger placed right in front of it. Now *that* is something that no "fake" service dog would ever be able to do - it is, in my opinion, some pretty advanced training.
That's a pretty basic part of dog training, and has nothing to do with being a service dog.
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  #44  
Old 24 March 2014, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Sylvanz View Post
I don't know about Canada, but I think (though I'm not a lawyer) the inspector cannot penalize a restaurant for obeying the ADA.
You are correct. I would think the inspector would have to ask the supervisor on duty why the dog was being permitted in the dining area and if they said it was because of the ADA they could not be penalized, at least if the dog was not misbehaving.

Hero Mike, as far as whether service dogs could be purse dogs, it's certainly possible. And as the cites I provided point out, you can't tell by looking at a dog whether it's a legitimate service dog. So I wonder how you know that all the legitimate ones you've seen have been walking around on their own unless you're assuming that purse dogs you see are necessarily not service dogs. I'm not saying that most of them are, just that any of them could be.
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  #45  
Old 24 March 2014, 04:04 PM
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Yeah, that's one of the few things I could get through to both our big mutt and the Beagle we used to have that half destroyed our house. I taught them both to wait to eat until I gave them the go ahead. It kept them from knocking me on the floor.
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  #46  
Old 24 March 2014, 05:02 PM
Singing in the Drizzle Singing in the Drizzle is offline
 
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Another thing is that a service animal can be required to be on a leashed, harnessed or tethered unless these devices interfere with the service animal’s work or the individual’s disability prevents using these devices. In that case, the individual must maintain control of the animal through voice, signal, or other effective controls.

As one individual around here learned after get a ticket and then arrested for assaulting a officer after receive ticket. State and City parks require all pets to be on a leash unless your disability prevents it. A service animal may leave the restraint in order perform its service duties if it can not be done other wise and then it must be put back on leash. In this guys case he was claiming the service animals were to help calm him around people and get girls. The police did not have any problem with that being dogs were allowed in the park, just that they were running around without a leash and they did not care if they were service animals are not.
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  #47  
Old 24 March 2014, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Singing in the Drizzle View Post
In this guys case he was claiming the service animals were to help calm him around people and get girls.
bolding mine

I did not know that inability to make a connection with the other sex was a specific disability.
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  #48  
Old 24 March 2014, 05:51 PM
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Feels like it sometimes. . .
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  #49  
Old 24 March 2014, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwins View Post
Hero Mike, as far as whether service dogs could be purse dogs, it's certainly possible. And as the cites I provided point out, you can't tell by looking at a dog whether it's a legitimate service dog. So I wonder how you know that all the legitimate ones you've seen have been walking around on their own unless you're assuming that purse dogs you see are necessarily not service dogs. I'm not saying that most of them are, just that any of them could be.
I don't simply mean the size of the dog - just that the dog is being constantly carried around by the owner. I can see a few cases where it might be better for the dog's safety (if it is a small dog) to be picked up and protected from other, less-well-behaved, non-service dogs. But for a service dog to be perpetually carried around is another story.

I would also think that a service dog would not be "dressed up" in anything but the most functional of clothing - something to identify it as a service dog, or to keep the dog warm/cool. I'm not an expert here, but I am pretty sure that dogs only wear hats as a novelty, and not to keep them warm, cool, or protected from the sun. I imagine that exceptions are possible, and there would be little harm in putting a hat on the 5-pound seizure-response dog that its owner is carrying, but it couldn't do very much (like get help for the owner) if it's carried around in a bag and wearing a frilly costume.
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  #50  
Old 24 March 2014, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvanz View Post
I don't get the anger and disdain heaped on people perceived to be "faking".
I don't get the anger either but I can understand the disdain. I think a lot of people get annoyed when they feel someone is cheating and pretending your pet is actually a service animal, especially if you go to the extent of ordering special vests of whatever, is a pretty big cheat. Is it worth getting confrontational over? Probably not. But I can understand an eye roll or two!
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  #51  
Old 24 March 2014, 06:13 PM
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It is a sleazy thing to do. But I suspect we'll never 100% eliminate it, and that even getting close to 100% elimination would involve burdening legitimate service dog users.

I see an analogy to conversations we've had about public assistance fraud. If you can't eliminate every single instance of it without without spending more than the fraud costs, and thus reducing the money available to help people who need it, then I would rather accept a small amount of fraud.
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  #52  
Old 24 March 2014, 07:07 PM
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That's exactly how I feel about it. The people who do it are world class jerks, but I don't think it happens as much as some people think, and it's far far preferable to take everyone who says their dog is a service dog at their word than to hassle people who don't have visible disabilities and traditional service dogs.

Hero Mike, I wasn't talking about just the size either. Seizure and diabetic alert dogs might be able to do their jobs while being held--I don't know that going for help is part of their job. My understanding is that they usually just serve as an early warning system. You could also have a dog that is temporarily off duty, like if a deaf person is visiting with a hearing person, perhaps, so it is being held. And while some people want their service dogs to be highly visible and obvious, I'm sure there are also some who don't want that.
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  #53  
Old 24 March 2014, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
It is a sleazy thing to do. But I suspect we'll never 100% eliminate it, and that even getting close to 100% elimination would involve burdening legitimate service dog users.

I see an analogy to conversations we've had about public assistance fraud. If you can't eliminate every single instance of it without without spending more than the fraud costs, and thus reducing the money available to help people who need it, then I would rather accept a small amount of fraud.
Yep, same thing with people using the handicapped parking who shouldn't. I guess you just need to comfort yourself with the notion that people who abuse the system to their own advantage (and sometimes to the disadvantage of others) have to live with themselves.
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  #54  
Old 24 March 2014, 09:04 PM
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This discussion sounds very familiar: http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=87189
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  #55  
Old 25 March 2014, 03:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
There is a finite number of handicapped parking spaces; when one car is parked in a handicapped spot, that spot is unavailable to other cars. The situation with service dogs isn't analagous, IMO.
But an animal, service or not, is a risk in the places where they are typically banned, that is why the bans exist. A dog in a restaurant is a health issue. A dog anywhere in public is a safety issue. So, unlike handicapped spaces, which are primarily to help the handicapped, restrictions on dogs are often for the health and safety of others. If there is a reason to ban dogs at all then there is sufficient justification for proof that an exception should be made for a particular animal.
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  #56  
Old 25 March 2014, 08:56 PM
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However, at this point in time that is not how the law is. Frankly, I don't think that is how it should be for all the reasons enumerated above.
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  #57  
Old 25 March 2014, 10:11 PM
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Service dogs pose minimal health risks. And I don't think it's too much to ask for society to bear the tiny burden of those minimal risks, as well as the minimal risk of a service dog being fake, in order to slightly lighten the burden (or avoid adding to it)on a disabled person who is able to use a service dog.
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  #58  
Old 25 March 2014, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwins View Post
Hero Mike, I wasn't talking about just the size either. Seizure and diabetic alert dogs might be able to do their jobs while being held--I don't know that going for help is part of their job.
It can be. I suggest you look it up.
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  #59  
Old 25 March 2014, 11:08 PM
jimmy101_again jimmy101_again is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwins View Post
Service dogs pose minimal health risks. And I don't think it's too much to ask for society to bear the tiny burden of those minimal risks, as well as the minimal risk of a service dog being fake, in order to slightly lighten the burden (or avoid adding to it)on a disabled person who is able to use a service dog.
Service Dogs may be minimal risk but not all dogs have that training. By default, the assumption is that a dog is not trained since trained dogs are much rarer than untrained. It isn't question of excepting the risk of service dogs, it is a question of letting anyone, for any reason, label their untrained dog a service animal, hence getting around the quite reasonable regulations against having dogs in some public places.

Last edited by jimmy101_again; 25 March 2014 at 11:09 PM. Reason: one too many a's
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  #60  
Old 26 March 2014, 12:33 AM
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But, as was pointed out quite a bit upthread, a restaurant can legally throw a dog out if it is behaving poorly. If a restaurant only allows the 'behaving' dogs it matters little whether they are or are not 'true' service dogs.
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