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  #21  
Old 13 April 2013, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by geminilee View Post
That "women need to be responsible for their own safety" is rape-apologist BS.
Amen. Somebody say it again.
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  #22  
Old 13 April 2013, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Ramblin' Dave View Post
You know, it's one thing to say that in the abstract, as a general rule to live by. (Even then it skates uncomfortably close to victim-blaming, but ultimately g-you are your own best advocate.) But in the aftermath of a teenager being gang raped and then bullied into suicide?
It's not victim blaming at all. It's a concept the left is unfamiliar with. A little personal responsibility goes a long way. When I was on the street I wore body armor because its my job to protect myself. I have taken martial arts for almost 30 years because its my safety is my job.

If she's drunk and pass out who did she think was going to protect her? The world is filled with sheep and wolves. That's a lesion people need to learn early on for their own safety.
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  #23  
Old 13 April 2013, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Kallah View Post
The problem is that people go out and do things that put them at risk anyway.
In other words, the problem is that (female) people decide not to spend their lives either locked up alone in a room or accompanied by bonded bodyguards?

1) Plenty of people get raped doing things that are not on the standard advice list -- such as sleeping in their own bedrooms. 2) People, even if female, are entitled to go out and live their lives, even if this does entail going somewhere alone, either because they don't have a bodyguard handy or because they feel like being alone once in a while.

Yes, getting falling down drunk can be risky. It's risky for both sexes, and it's risky for lots of reasons unrelated to rape: drunk people misjudge their ability to drive and kill themselves and/or other people, drunk people die of alcohol poisoning, drunk people are more likely to fall down the stairs and break their necks, drunk people are, I suspect, more likely to be robbed. If you want to generally point out, to both sexes, that getting falling down drunk is risky behavior, go right ahead. Pointing out specifically to women that getting drunk is risky solely because of the one reason of possible rape is obnoxious. Telling women that we shouldn't go out alone is worse than obnoxious. I am not going to live in a cage.
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  #24  
Old 13 April 2013, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Sue View Post
That way we can go about believing that as long as we don't leave the car door unlocked or walk alone at night or whatever that nothing bad can possibly happen to us.
Of course terrible things can still happen to to people, even when they do everything they reasonably can to minimize the risk of being a victom. Even if you take totally unreasonable measures (that are more harmful than helpful to begin with) there's no guarantee that you won't be a victim of crime. People will still get raped until we educate others that sex without meaningful consent - no matter how gray the shades may seem - is always rape. The problem is that even if we step up those education efforts, and even if we develop programs that really get the point across that (for example) sometimes someone can't give consent because they are incapacitated, some people still won't get it. There will be no day when 100% of people are 100% unwilling to rape other people. Right now that number is much lower than 100%, which is why I have wholeheartedly agreed that we need to educate men (and women) that sex without meaningful consent is rape. Always. No matter how iffy it might seem. The closer we get to 100% of people understanding what rape is, the better off this world will be, and it's a goal we need to work very hard towards - but in the mean time, bad things still happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
Telling women that we shouldn't go out alone is worse than obnoxious. I am not going to live in a cage.
I have never once suggested that women should never go out alone, ever, or that women should not drink, ever. I have gone out of my way to point out that most of the advice handed out is ineffective at best (like trying to make a fist with keys in it) or insulting at worst (like not dressing "provocatively"). That does not mean that all such advice is useless or unhelpful: accepting a drink from a stranger is a bad idea, no matter who you are, and if you really believe that taking that small step is the same as being forced to "live in a cage" then there's really nothing more I can say to back up my point.

Last edited by Kallah; 13 April 2013 at 02:54 PM.
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  #25  
Old 13 April 2013, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Kallah View Post
accepting a drink from a stranger is a bad idea, no matter who you are
To the extent that it is a bad idea*, it's a bad idea for men as well as for women, and it's a bad idea also for reasons having nothing to do with rape. If you phrase it in that fashion, I believe I already clearly said that I have no problem with it.



(There are circumstances in which it's perfectly reasonable behavior: for instance, if you go to a party which good friends of yours are giving, and you happen not to know the person pouring glasses of wine.)
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  #26  
Old 13 April 2013, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Kallah View Post
I have gone out of my way to point out that most of the advice handed out is ineffective at best (like trying to make a fist with keys in it)
I've been meaning to ask you...why is that a bad idea? Punching someone with keys sticking out of your fist will hurt someone. A lot. And probably cause lots of bleeding.
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  #27  
Old 13 April 2013, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by geminilee View Post
Trust me, women get plenty of "advice" on how their actions make them more vulnerable.Don't walk alone at night, don't drink, don't wear provocative clothes. We get that advice all the time, and very rarely is the advice to men not to rape used. Perhaps if it were given to men more often, the other advice would need to be given to men less.
But many people regardless of gender are given advice on how to avoid being robbed or mugged. . The difference is when a man gets robbed and reported to the police, he isn't judged by whether he violated "the rules," whereas women who get raped are.("You were dressed wealthy and walking alone at night, sir? Well you were just advertising that you wanted to be robbed. Clearly you were asking for it.")
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  #28  
Old 13 April 2013, 04:09 PM
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Oh, never mind. It's a lost cause and I try not to engage in that manner anymore.
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  #29  
Old 13 April 2013, 05:18 PM
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Auburn, that is my point. And the fact that this happens still to this day makes any advice that places.responsibilty on the victim suspect. It lends credence to the idea that a woman who has not followed every rule to the letter is at best partly to blame, and at worst actively wanted it to happen.
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  #30  
Old 13 April 2013, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Wintermute View Post
It's not victim blaming at all. It's a concept the left is unfamiliar with. A little personal responsibility goes a long way
I've found that the instant the words "personal responsibility" leave someone's lips/fingers, that the person is pretty much an jerk.

The left is perfectly comfortable with taking care of yourself and others. Women get more than enough advice about avoiding rape, even though that advice doesn't actually help them avoid being raped. Sometimes, people, especially young people, get out of control and do things they shouldn't. That doesn't mean we need to continue to address the behavior of the victim.

but this worship of "personal responsibility" is just an excuse for letting people/corporations/society get away with bad things.
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  #31  
Old 13 April 2013, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Wintermute View Post
It's not victim blaming at all. It's a concept the left is unfamiliar with. A little personal responsibility goes a long way.
The sheer patronizing arrogance and ignorance in this post is mind boggling.

So, women on the right never get raped apparently? It's simply drunken liberal women with little regard for "personal responsibility"? And that type of advice would help stop what percentage of rapes?

Last edited by St. Alia; 13 April 2013 at 05:42 PM.
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  #32  
Old 13 April 2013, 06:11 PM
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Tsk, Tsk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintermute View Post
It's not victim blaming at all. It's a concept the left is unfamiliar with. A little personal responsibility goes a long way. When I was on the street I wore body armor because its my job to protect myself. I have taken martial arts for almost 30 years because its my safety is my job.

If she's drunk and pass out who did she think was going to protect her? The world is filled with sheep and wolves. That's a lesion people need to learn early on for their own safety.
When young men drink and pass out , who protects them? Why aren't they warned that they may be raped?

I've had two women in my family raped. Both were at home , in bed, with the doors locked. Two different cities and years apart. Other than them taking the personal responsibility to not be asleep while having a vagina , what do you think the sheep should have done?
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  #33  
Old 13 April 2013, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by eeriespawnsybil View Post
When young men drink and pass out , who protects them? Why aren't they warned that they may be raped?
Hopefully their friends, especially since men who are sexually assaulted face judgement that is just as cruel - if not even more so - than most women do. I believe that advice and suggestions for keeping yourself safer (but not completely safe - nothing can do that) should be offered to both men and women equally. "Guys can't be raped, guys always want sex, and if he got it up while you were raping him it's obvious he wanted it!" is just as dangerous a mind set as "She was falling down drunk when she said yes, so she totally consented". Education needs to address both attitudes, along with many others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eeriespawnsybil View Post
I've had two women in my family raped. Both were at home , in bed, with the doors locked. Two different cities and years apart. Other than them taking the personal responsibility to not be asleep while having a vagina , what do you think the sheep should have done?
Sometimes there's nothing you can do, and terrible things happen to people regardless of what preventative measure they did or did not take. That doesn't mean that such measures are useless in other situations. Most importantly of all, it doesn't change the fact that the blame falls entirely on the rapist, regardless of what the victim did or did not do.
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  #34  
Old 13 April 2013, 07:10 PM
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When my now adult children were younger I included many conversations with my son about consent , not feeling like he was owed sex, not pressuring girls and the fact that impaired people cannot say yes. I talked to my daughter about trusting her instincts and the fact that her body is hers and that she should never do anything that she was uncomfortable with.

Not that I feel like my son is or was dangerous in any way but I'd like to think that maybe my talks with him were more beneficial to the girls he dated then the advice most girls get to protect themselves. My daughter has told me that she made good decisions a few times because she had the confidence to not give in to peer pressure and speak up when things weren't right.
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  #35  
Old 13 April 2013, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Other than them taking the personal responsibility to not be asleep while having a vagina , what do you think the sheep should have done?
Judging from the rest of his post, worn full body armor and taken martial arts training, apparently.

~Psihala
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  #36  
Old 13 April 2013, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Wintermute View Post
It's not victim blaming at all. It's a concept the left is unfamiliar with. A little personal responsibility goes a long way
W.T.F.

I am a rape victim. I was stone-cold sober. "Safe" in my house. With my husband. Both of us from the right side of the political spectrum (what in the world does this have to do with anything ?)

My conservative husband who should protect his wife from evil rapists was the one who was drunk. And who raped me.

Kiss my ass with your polarizing left/right bullshit and shove your personal responsibilty where the sun don't shine.
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  #37  
Old 13 April 2013, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Kallah View Post
Hopefully their friends, especially since men who are sexually assaulted face judgement that is just as cruel - if not even more so - than most women do. I believe that advice and suggestions for keeping yourself safer (but not completely safe - nothing can do that) should be offered to both men and women equally. "Guys can't be raped, guys always want sex, and if he got it up while you were raping him it's obvious he wanted it!" is just as dangerous a mind set as "She was falling down drunk when she said yes, so she totally consented". Education needs to address both attitudes, along with many others.
Domestic violence towards men possesses a lot of similar issues of deniability ("Men cannot be battered, they are physically larger than women." or "You're a man you can take it or you must have done something to her."). Both genders need to learn that when someone rapes you or beats you, it is never okay no matter what the excuse is that preceded it.
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  #38  
Old 13 April 2013, 10:44 PM
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Indeed...as much as I love MST3K, I recently watched The Violent Years and they made numerous jokes about the movie's male rape victim being ecstatic, lucky, and of other men flocking to the scene of the crime looking for the rapists so they could score too.

I was absolutely dumbfounded at how uncomfortable that joke made me feel. Worst part is...this was an Ed Wood movie and they took it seriously. Like what the women did to the man was actually a horrible event.
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  #39  
Old 13 April 2013, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Wintermute View Post
It's not victim blaming at all. It's a concept the left is unfamiliar with. A little personal responsibility goes a long way.
Indeed it does. That is why men should step up and make it their personal responsibility not to rape people.

For the record, I have also been raped. While stone-cold sober, in bed with my boyfriend. Who ignored my request for him to stop because his horniness was far more important.

It doesn't matter how you're dressed or how sober you are if you're in company with someone who isn't trustworthy. And that's something you have no control over at all; well, unless 'become a hermit' is in that list of 'advice'.
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  #40  
Old 13 April 2013, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by DevilBunny View Post
Indeed it does. That is why men should step up and make it their personal responsibility not to rape people.
I'd replace "men" with "people" there. A CDC report on sexual violence found that once they included "made to penetrate" as a category they got over a million males who had been raped in the past year, eighty percent by women. The CDC currently defines rape as forced penetration, so they defined that as "other sexual violence."

Sister "read the entire PDF, it's very enlightening" Ray
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