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  #81  
Old 28 October 2013, 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Hero_Mike View Post
I don't understand, otherwise, what ganzfeld's whole idea is that - that Hallowe'en is quasi-religious, and should not even get a mention in a secular, public school environment - despite the fact that it has been included for a very long time.
Maybe you missed this post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
As I stated several times, I have no objection to schools doing something for Halloween. The school in the OP was criticized for doing nothing for Halloween, which I think is a very reasonable decision even if it isn't what all schools do.
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  #82  
Old 28 October 2013, 01:46 AM
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Or maybe he missed the other three times I've said it in this thread. Maybe they had a Halloween party instead of class on the day they were supposed to have reading comprehension.
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  #83  
Old 28 October 2013, 03:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Hero_Mike View Post
Anyway, thorny locust, I will reiterate for you, once again, what I said, and what it means in context of this conversation. It isn't just about meeting non-Christians - which at a rough 5 out of 100 across the country - is rare.
You may consider 5% to be rare. However, you didn't say only that it is rare, in the United States, to be non-Christian. You said that the likelihood of even meeting a non-Christian is very small. That's not at all the same thing. And I don't understand why you're having so much trouble seeing the difference.
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  #84  
Old 28 October 2013, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
Or maybe he missed the other three times I've said it in this thread. Maybe they had a Halloween party instead of class on the day they were supposed to have reading comprehension.
So the fact that you bring up the religious or quasi-religious roots of Hallowe'en is a total non-sequitur to the *why* of why schools shouldn't do anything for Hallowe'en? It seemed like a natural reason for why you mentioned it.

I'll ask more directly then - *why* do you think it's a good idea for schools to do nothing for Hallowe'en, or even for this particular school (with no real evidence of a large number of parents - Christian, non-Christian, atheist, agnostic, or Pastafarian - having serious objections to Hallowe'en that the school acted upon) to do nothing, when most other schools in the area (city, region, province) would have some recognition of the day, and that there seems to be no policy which would justify this action.
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  #85  
Old 28 October 2013, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Hero_Mike View Post
It seemed like a natural reason for why you mentioned it.
If that were the reason I doubt I would have denied it from my first post here. I mean, I don't feel strongly enough about Halloween to lie about something so extremely trivial. But you can keep making up your own narrative about my posts. (Just keep them shorter, IMO, because few people probably want to read a whole chapter about your own flights of fancy.)
Quote:
I'll ask more directly then - *why* do you think it's a good idea for schools to do nothing for Hallowe'en […]
When did I say I think it's a "good idea"?
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  #86  
Old 28 October 2013, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
Don't see why not. Why should public schools be honoring Catholic saints at all?
Trust me, I've seen enough St Patrick's Days in Ireland to know that honouring the saint is the last thing on anyone's mind.
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  #87  
Old 29 October 2013, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
So if a public school says "we're not doing anything special for Halloween but you can wear black and orange clothes if you want to do something yourself" then I think that's extremely reasonable if not the most rational choice.
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
It's just a fun holiday for folks, not something schools should feel obligated to participate in any more than they should tell ghost stories on overnight field trips if they don't feel it's appropriate. (If the faculty want to, I have no problem. I'm not against having fun.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
I don't see why schools should feel obligated to participate in a holiday that has a lot to do with supernatural things and superstitions. That's the reasonable and rational answer. It doesn't matter if it's only one person who opposes or even none. That doesn't change that the primary imagery of Halloween is based on the crudest and most ridiculous superstitious beliefs.

Whether it has primarily religious or non-religious roots or one would call it quasi-religious or not is an interesting and related topic but it's not really necessary to solve these questions to come to a rational conclusion. (As I said, I have nothing against them doing something either. I just do not think they should feel obligated.)
So using the words "rational" and "reasonable" imply that not celebrating Hallowe'en is a good thing. That's the idea I get when you mention it three times. You think it's crude and superstitious, and you definitely have something against the notion of the supernatural. Even though the way that modern day Hallowe'en celebrations are really done for fun and, on occasion, to scare other people, and not to scare away an evil spirits which may or may not be present.

Personally, I think that there's no good reason to remove an existing "holiday" - that just ruins morale, and let's face it, morale is a valuable commodity when it comes to students - that whole "carrot vs. stick" argument. YMMV.

I think you've really forgotten what it's like to be a child.
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  #88  
Old 29 October 2013, 01:01 AM
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I admit I just joined this thread and haven't caught up yet, but I'm not interpreting the quoted portions of ganzfeld's posts the same way you are, Hero_Mike. What I'm getting is, "schools can choose to celebrate Halloween, or not; they really have no obligation either way." I would agree with that statement, even though I also agree with your argument that Halloween is fun and it's a good idea for schools to do fun stuff for kids. (Heck, I'm 30 and I'm still every inch a kid when it comes to Halloween. I'm glad my law school has a tradition of dressing up, though I would grudgingly accept that they were within their rights if they chose to put the kibosh on it.)
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  #89  
Old 29 October 2013, 01:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hero_Mike View Post
So using the words "rational" and "reasonable" imply that not celebrating Hallowe'en is a good thing.
That's not what those words mean.
Quote:
You think it's crude and superstitious, and you definitely have something against the notion of the supernatural.
I never said it was crude or superstitious. There's a difference between having connotations or imagery of superstitions and being superstitious. (I don't know where you got "crude". Or that I dislike Halloween at all. I like Halloween.) As for "having something against the notion of the supernatural" it doesn't matter what I think. Schools should not feel the least bit obligated to participate in "notions" of the supernatural in any form. Whether they should be allowed or not is a different question.
Quote:
I think you've really forgotten what it's like to be a child.
I think you have forgotten how to read.

Last edited by ganzfeld; 29 October 2013 at 01:20 AM.
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  #90  
Old 29 October 2013, 01:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esprise Me View Post
I admit I just joined this thread and haven't caught up yet, but I'm not interpreting the quoted portions of ganzfeld's posts the same way you are, Hero_Mike. What I'm getting is, "schools can choose to celebrate Halloween, or not; they really have no obligation either way." I would agree with that statement, even though I also agree with your argument that Halloween is fun and it's a good idea for schools to do fun stuff for kids. (Heck, I'm 30 and I'm still every inch a kid when it comes to Halloween. I'm glad my law school has a tradition of dressing up, though I would grudgingly accept that they were within their rights if they chose to put the kibosh on it.)
Yes, and I wouldn't find it odd or unreasonable for any business to discourage or ban dressing up. I also understand how it is easy for something to become a distraction to students, especially young students. In my day, schools had to ban hockey cards and yo-yos, because they were such massive fads that they really were distracting. Same with pogs, Pokemon, handheld video games, and so on, in later years.

I just think that it's going to be difficult or impossible to isolate from something as "big" Hallowe'en, Christmas (the secular, gift-giving aspects), or the excitement generated by the impending spring break or summer vacation. Within a school's rights, probably, but in the absence of a better "good reason", it would take more activity to enact the ban, than the benefit you would get from it.

I personally think that ganzfeld isn't admitting that his real objection to Hallowe'en is his view of its religious and supernatural roots, and that to "celebrate" the holiday is to give some kind of approval to things which he clearly doesn't believe in. Putting on a costume makes me no more or less a believer in the supernatural - any more than reading books about magic is a conduit to satanism. I also believe that his living in Japan colors his experience adversely - kids don't celebrate Hallowe'en in Japan and are just fine for it (just like the majority of the population doesn't celebrate Christian holidays, even in a secular way, like we do here in North America). Some would believe that maybe they are better off for it. I'm not interested in debating that - but I find that people who think that we as a society would be better off in taking things more seriously, are barking up the wrong tree when it comes to something as benign as Hallowe'en.
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  #91  
Old 29 October 2013, 01:30 AM
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Nobody's threatening your precious Halloween. As far as I can tell no one here even said it shouldn't ever be celebrated in schools. As for whether it's an argument to "take things more seriously" I take a lot of things very seriously that I don't think schools should be obligated to participate in so I don't think that is a correct assessment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hero_Mike View Post
I personally think that ganzfeld isn't admitting that his real objection to Hallowe'en is his view of its religious and supernatural roots, and that to "celebrate" the holiday is to give some kind of approval to things which he clearly doesn't believe in.
I think your inability to read what I said from the first post - that I have absolutely nothing against Halloween and no objection to schools participating - indicates that you simply refuse to see the world as it is and make up your own fantasies about what other people think based not on what they have said but on your own insecurities about how the world might change in unexpected ways.
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  #92  
Old 22 October 2017, 07:41 PM
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Witch School Cancels Halloween, Will Celebrate ‘Black And Orange’ Spirit Day

The decorations are out and Halloween is two weeks away but there’s controversy at Boyden Elementary School in Walpole. The school will not be having its annual Halloween costume parade this year.

“I think it’s a lot of political correctness,” a Walpole woman said. “I think it’s a shame because Halloween is the funnest day of the year next to Christmas for children.”

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2017/10/1...loween-parade/

... funnest day of the year... Sigh.

Anyway, this article and others far more acrimonious have been circulating on my FB page and the chatter makes it sound like this is something new. Clearly, based on the thread I've put this in, it's not. But anyway the school didn't cancel Halloween! It is just doing it differently. Whether you agree with that or not it's not like the principal emailed all the parent and told them their kids weren't allowed to go out for trick or treats anymore - but that's not what you'd think based on the comments I've been reading!
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  #93  
Old 22 October 2017, 07:57 PM
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... funnest day of the year... Sigh.
I read that as her imitating what a young child would say.
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  #94  
Old 22 October 2017, 08:09 PM
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I hope you're right.
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  #95  
Old 22 October 2017, 08:52 PM
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What's "Black and Orange Spirit Day" and what are the ways that it's more inclusive than Halloween?
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  #96  
Old 22 October 2017, 10:21 PM
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The school in Ottawa where my daughters graduated was about 60% Muslim. Several of the typical calendar events that were based upon Christian events still carried on. Some with different names.

I know that around Hallowe'en the school had a costume party day. The school did not call it Hallowe'en, but they did not stop the students from using the word either.

It was fun at Christmas time as the principal (a very tall black man) dressed as St Nick and visited all the classes to explain to those who were not in the know about who this crazy guy in red was and what he represented.

But their school also celebrated Diwali, Eid and other events that were important in some of the students' lives.
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  #97  
Old 22 October 2017, 11:26 PM
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It's the annual the War on Halloween! We said trick or treat and the principal didn't give us any candy. What the heck is the world coming to?
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  #98  
Old 22 October 2017, 11:29 PM
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One of the schools in our district canceled the school parade and forbid costumes on Halloween last year. It did not go over very well, and actually made the national news.

My main issue with it was that it was not a district wide decision, so every other elementary school was still doing it. And due to one of our schools being a gifted magnet school, there were siblings at different schools within the same district with different Halloween policies.
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