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  #1  
Old 22 May 2017, 11:45 PM
Steve Steve is offline
 
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Default Deaths confirmed after Manchester Arena blast reports

A number of people have died and others have been injured following a reported explosion at Manchester Arena.

Witnesses reported hearing a "huge bang" following a pop concert by US singer Ariana Grande.

http://www.snopes.com/2017/05/22/pol...ester-england/
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  #2  
Old 23 May 2017, 10:37 AM
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First of all sympathies to all of those affected by the Manchester attack. I own a house between Manchester and Liverpool and so have regularly travelled to the area.

The death toll in the Manchester blast is now placed at 22 with 59 seriously injured. The victims include children. The blast happened in the foyer area of the concert arena, so presumably the suicide bomber did not have to be security checked. The bomb was set off as the concert-goers were leaving, thus causing maximum causalities. Eight hospitals are dealing with the victims. The railway station is still closed and all trains and trams cancelled. The police think they know the identity of the attacker, but want it confirmed before they release a name.

Theresa May has chaired a meeting of the Cobra Committee (this deals with security issues in the UK). Campaigning in the general election has been suspended. My cricket club, based at Old Trafford Cricket Ground in Manchester, is holding a Courteeners concert with 50,000 expected to attend. At the very least security will be tightened.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...ester-40010124
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Old 23 May 2017, 12:06 PM
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My Brothers in laws are from Manchester, so my Sister-in-law still has a fair few relatives are living there, including Aunts and Uncles and cousins. I am thinking some of her cousins might have children of an age to be attending the concert. But I haven't heard anything as of yet.
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Old 23 May 2017, 04:34 PM
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I was pleased to hear about people being offered shelter in the immediate aftermath of the explosion. Is there any word on the missing? I heard a heart-rending piece on BBC this am of a mother from the Hebrides trying to find her daughter.

Ali
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Old 23 May 2017, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew of Ware View Post
First of all sympathies to all of those affected by the Manchester attack.
Sympathies from this side of the pond too.
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  #6  
Old 23 May 2017, 06:45 PM
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According to the page:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40020168

the two girls are still missing, as are several others. Several of the victims have been named, the youngest is a girl aged eight. As you are probably aware the suicide bomber has been named, someone has been arrested, but the police are still not sure if he acted alone or with others. So-called Islamic State have claimed responsibility, but I believe they did after the attack recently in London.

The page linked to above has a heart-rending interview on a BBC radio station with a lady who witnessed the blast in the foyer. It's a five minute interview and contains graphic details, but well worth a listen.

A vigil is being held outside Manchester Town Hall attended by civil, religious and political leaders. Vigils are also being held in London and elsewhere. The injured are being cared for at eight local hospitals and it is reported that 12 of the injured are children under sixteen. I was moved by a lady interviewed on London's local BBC news programme who said:

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Anyone who attacks young girls is disgusting and they are cowards. If they want to bring the fight to us, bring the fight to us, but don't take it to little girls.
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  #7  
Old 23 May 2017, 08:46 PM
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Is it possible that the attacker has discovered a previously unrecognized, and unexploited, hole in typical event security?

Walk into an event as it is ending and large numbers of people are exiting, thus avoiding the security checkpoint.
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  #8  
Old 23 May 2017, 09:30 PM
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AIUI, he didn't avoid the security checkpoint, he stayed outside the area covered by the checkpoint. IMO, this is no more a security flaw than the conditions that allowed the recent shooting in Ft Lauderdale airport.
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Old 23 May 2017, 10:06 PM
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I have an Internet friend whose son was at the concert; fortunately, he's OK.
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Old 23 May 2017, 10:22 PM
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Andrew of Ware, I agree with the lady on the BBC. I would be perfectly fine with the perpetrators of violent crimes against unarmed civilian groups, be they bombing or shootings or plane crashes, being referred to as "cowards" from here on out. Not shooters, not bombers, not terrorists, just cowards. And that goes for anyone who targets innocents for any reason in any country.

Cowards, all of you.
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  #11  
Old 23 May 2017, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
AIUI, he didn't avoid the security checkpoint, he stayed outside the area covered by the checkpoint. IMO, this is no more a security flaw than the conditions that allowed the recent shooting in Ft Lauderdale airport.
Indeed. And sometimes security measures can be the best place to go for an attack. Long line of people waiting to get through security? Don't bother trying to get a bomb or a gun inside, "just take it outside" and shoot up the entry control point. It's really not very hard to kill a lot of people. It's just that vast majority of people don't want to kill a lot of people and those who do want to kill a lot of people want a little more theater or showmanship or whatever than shooting up a baggage claim or the line of cars outside the CIA headquarters.
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Cowards, all of you.
I'm afraid they don't care about your indignation, one way or the other. It doesn't make me feel any better to try and define our enemies into irrelevance. I certainly don't see how this helps: the people whose opinions they care about aren't part of this conversation.
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  #12  
Old 23 May 2017, 10:44 PM
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Cowards, all of you.
Agreed. Don't name them. Don't give them their posthumous "glory" . Just call them what they are. Cowards.
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  #13  
Old 23 May 2017, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASL View Post
I'm afraid they don't care about your indignation, one way or the other. It doesn't make me feel any better to try and define our enemies into irrelevance. I certainly don't see how this helps: the people whose opinions they care about aren't part of this conversation.
I didn't say it to make you feel better, though I certainly didn't say it to make you feel worse. I don't think killers are irrelevant, and I am not so arrogant as to suppose that an opinion anyone states on a message is so powerful that it could "help" stop terrorism. I did, however, express myself in a way that made, for one small second, me feel better, because this is horrible, and that's what people do then they're upset.

But, as Sue said, I do believe that how we define killers in the media and in public discussion does matter to a degree, since without the right kind of recognition they don't spread the terror quite how they intended.
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  #14  
Old 23 May 2017, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Little Pink Pill View Post
But, as Sue said, I do believe that how we define killers in the media and in public discussion does matter to a degree, since without the right kind of recognition they don't spread the terror quite how they intended.
Then I don't see what's wrong with "terrorist" or "murderer." Or "baby-killer" even. But not coward: there are actual cowards out there who deserve better than to be associated with murderers.
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  #15  
Old 24 May 2017, 12:03 AM
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That is a different argument altogether, then. I see your point, but I think people understand that there is a great deal of difference between, say, not wanting to run into a burning building to save a stranger, and thinking that blowing up little kids is a valient act of war. In the same way they understand that someone who kills in an act of self defense is a different kind of "killer" than someone who stabs people in their beds.

The point is that terrorism makes the people who do it seem small, not heroic.
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  #16  
Old 24 May 2017, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Little Pink Pill View Post
The point is that terrorism makes the people who do it seem small, not heroic.
To those who see it as terrorism, sure. By calling them cowards do you mean to say "these guys aren't a big deal"? Because if so, I also disagree: they are a big deal and should be hunted down as the violent criminals they are (provided they aren't all already dead, but the point applies to those plotting future attacks as well).

Words mean things. Calling them "cowards" in an effort to make ourselves feel better or to minimalize the threat they pose serves no purpose at best and at worst serves their purpose.

And on the off chance there is someone reading this, thinking "you're totally derailing the conversation again ASL" let me just ask, perhaps rhetorically, what is the point of a discussion if not to speak to those who will listen? These murderers will not listen. They aren't viewing this thread. Their supporters probably aren't viewing this thread either. If I could "lecture" them, believe me I would. But I can no more lecture them than I can, say, lecture someone who leaves a handgun within reach of a toddler. So if I were to say such people ought to be thrown in jail for negligence, I wouldn't be "lecturing them" so much as discussing the issue with you (because you're here and they're not).

Know your audience and speak to them, not to the subject.

We all agree this is terrible. We all agree these are really bad people and would prefer not to see their acts emulated. So what don't we agree on and why? Apparently whether or not these people are more fittingly called "cowards" or "murderers"/"terrorists." Clearly I'm for the latter. Perhaps we also disagree on the best way to prevent such attacks in the future: that discussion could get ugly quick, though. I'm happy to hold off on that one until someone indicates they want to have it.

ETA: And, for the record, I'll just say I think it probably takes courage to carry out an attack like this. Just like it took many a Confederate soldier "courage" to charge the Union line at Gettysburg. Courage is overrated. I'm glad the Confederacy lost and I hope these terrorists do too. I do think understanding motivations, attitudes, and mindsets is a key part in preventing future attacks (and I doubt many will find that contentious). So, obscuring the terrorists' "mindset" by portraying them as something they are not (at least not in the usual sense of the word) does more harm than good, IMHO. We should understand that they probably see themselves as heroes (they may even be so HUMBLE as to insist they're NOT heroes!) and so do their supporters.

Last edited by ASL; 24 May 2017 at 12:29 AM.
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  #17  
Old 24 May 2017, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASL View Post
Words mean things. Calling them "cowards" in an effort to make ourselves feel better or to minimalize the threat they pose serves no purpose at best and at worst serves their purpose.
A coward, by most definitions, is not a threat to anyone. A suicide bomber who is 100% committed to a fatal act of terrorism is not a coward. S/He is a threat, a danger, a terrorist, a zealot, a fanatic, a multitude of adjectives, but not cowardly. I'm not sure what purpose it has ever served to describe these acts that way.

The best way to not give them recognition is to not publicly name them or show their pictures in the media. (I think this is more applicable to the young men who tend to commit mass shootings, but for some reason they are rarely if ever described as cowards.)
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  #18  
Old 24 May 2017, 12:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASL View Post
By calling them cowards do you mean to say "these guys aren't a big deal"?
No.

Quote:
Calling them "cowards" in an effort to make ourselves feel better or to minimalize the threat they pose serves no purpose at best and at worst serves their purpose.
You misunderstand me. I'm not trying minimize their threat, I'm trying to the minimize the heroic light they want to shine upon themselves.

Quote:
And, for the record, I'll just say I think it probably takes courage to carry out an attack like this. Just like it took many a Confederate soldier "courage" to charge the Union line at Gettysburg.
I agree that it takes courage to face an army of your equals, whatever your beliefs, whatever your nationality, whatever your war. It is not courage, however, that blows up a room full of unsuspecting little girls, any more than it is courage that mugs an old woman or rapes a date. That's just nerve.

Quote:
We should understand that they probably see themselves as heroes.
That's kind of my point.

ETA-
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Originally Posted by Cervus View Post
I think this is more applicable to the young men who tend to commit mass shootings, but for some reason they are rarely if ever described as cowards.
What's the difference for you (honest question)? Why is one a coward and one not? They're the same to me.

If you want to beat up a guy, but you're afraid of him, so you beat up his kid, isn't that an act of cowardice?
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  #19  
Old 24 May 2017, 01:10 AM
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Cowardly:

1.1 (of an action) carried out against a person who is unable to retaliate.
‘a cowardly attack on a helpless victim’

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/cowardly
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  #20  
Old 24 May 2017, 01:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Pink Pill View Post
ETA- What's the difference for you (honest question)? Why is one a coward and one not? They're the same to me.
I don't know what the difference is. Neither of them are cowards to me. But I see terrorist acts described as cowardly, whereas mass shootings generally aren't. I have no idea why people choose to describe them that way.
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