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  #121  
Old 16 September 2018, 02:24 AM
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I'm not sure what you mean by adequate. I don't think there is anything she could have yelled that would have made it OK (not a crime) to shoot him. What do you mean by adequate in this scenario?

ETA: should have refreshed the page before responding.
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  #122  
Old 19 September 2018, 02:50 PM
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But will you draw down on them like the right wing nut job you are?
He does draw on them, but only with markers, and only if they are asleep...

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  #123  
Old 24 September 2018, 07:10 PM
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https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2...neighbour.html

She has now been fired. Does anyone know what "adverse conduct" could mean?
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  #124  
Old 24 September 2018, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Sue View Post
https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2...neighbour.html

She has now been fired. Does anyone know what "adverse conduct" could mean?
Hmmmm. She was fired for adverse conduct while being arrested.

To me, that reads that her behaviour during the arrest is the reason for the firing, not the killing of a person in their own home.

Adverse conduct could mean anything. It sounds like a templated term that has specific meanings in their administration. I would not hazard a guess as to what it could mean.
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  #125  
Old 24 September 2018, 10:37 PM
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How about she shot a guy in his apartment? Even without a trial, it is possible for the department to conclude the act was "adverse."
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  #126  
Old 24 September 2018, 10:46 PM
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But the adverse conduct was during her arrest, which was three days after the shooting.
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  #127  
Old 24 September 2018, 10:50 PM
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"An Internal Affairs investigation concluded that on September 9, 2018, Officer Guyger #10702, engaged in adverse conduct when she was arrested for Manslaughter,"

Reads like a quirk of language to me. Recall also that she turned herself in. Perhaps the problem is that she was:

1) Arrested
2) the reason for her rest was adverse conduct
3) she can’t do her job even while on bail

Conclusion: we should fire her.

It’s also possible we don’t usually encounter language like this because it’s an unusual of an officer who shot one one, but not being treated as an officer-involved shooting because she was off-duty.
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  #128  
Old 24 September 2018, 11:12 PM
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From reading about what can constitute "resisting arrest" in the USA, including apparently arguing with the arresting officers or talking back, it would be surprising to me if she hadn't engaged in adverse conduct - which I would assume is a weaker statement than "resisting arrest" - if she was arrested by her own colleagues!

(I say that from a position of complete ignorance about what actually happened - but also from the position that if anybody tried to arrest me in the USA, I would probably "resist arrest" too, since from cases I've read about, it seems to cover anything more than simply lying down in silence the moment arrest is mentioned and letting them take you to the cells - and even lying down could be taken as resisting arrest if they wanted you to stand up and walk. Since she turned herself in, and they used a weaker term, "adverse conduct" could presumably constitute even trying to put forward her own point of view at the time!)
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  #129  
Old 25 September 2018, 01:50 AM
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That is not how resisting arrest works in my state.
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  #130  
Old 25 September 2018, 03:14 AM
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Silly Richard. Ignoring verbal commands is no grounds for charging the suspect with resisting arrest charge; it's only a reason for shooting him.
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  #131  
Old 25 September 2018, 11:09 AM
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Of course, silly me. Obviously you need stricter and better-defined standards to bring an actual legal charge. That could have serious consequences for somebody.
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  #132  
Old 25 September 2018, 11:54 AM
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The "adverse conduct" of the shooter was under discussion. Richard W. related that term to resisting arrest, and then engaged in hyperbole about what that term means in America. I took him to mean the actual legal sense since the shooter's firing from her job was being discussed.

So, Richard W, you were channeling a police-shooting apologist (or jury, perhaps) there, and not being critical of how resisting arrest is actually defined and applied outside of the context of shooting victims?

I'm sorry that I misunderstood your point, which, if I understand it correctly now, I don't disagree with. Her defense probably will be to try to make this, as much as possible, into a typical police-involved shooting, so they may try to raise those sorts of concepts about the victim to take advantage of the way those concepts get applied in the context of police shootings.

As to the shooter, she was neither charged with resisting arrest nor shot. I am not sure what "adverse conduct" means in this context. I'm not particularly inclined to be sympathetic toward her and assume it was something minor and unreasonable. In this context, it seems like it could mean anything from her shooting of the victim and the conduct leading up to it, to perhaps being misleading or dishonest about what occurred, or asking for favoritism in her treatment? I guess we'll have to wait for more details.
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  #133  
Old 25 September 2018, 02:23 PM
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Here is a quote from the story as updated right now, emphasis mine:
Quote:
A statement from police said an internal investigation concluded that on Sept. 9, Guyger, a four-year veteran of the force, “engaged in adverse conduct when she was arrested for Manslaughter.” Dallas police spokesman Sgt. Warren Mitchell later said that when an officer has been arrested for a crime, “adverse conduct” is often cited in the officer’s termination.
So I think the first sentence is just bad grammar. The implication here is that the cause of her arrest constituted adverse conduct, not her actions while being arrested.
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  #134  
Old 25 September 2018, 04:33 PM
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Bang Head Fired Dallas cop's lawyer: Termination was unfair, too soon

The firing of a white Dallas police officer who fatally shot her black neighbor inside his own apartment was premature and unfair, an attorney for the officer says.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fired-d...fair-too-soon/
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  #135  
Old 25 September 2018, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwins View Post
Her defense probably will be to try to make this, as much as possible, into a typical police-involved shooting, so they may try to raise those sorts of concepts about the victim to take advantage of the way those concepts get applied in the context of police shootings.
Would the judge allow that though? It would almost certainly prejudice the jury and given that she was off duty and that the police department quickly disavowed this as a police shooting, she'd have a hard time showing how it would be valid to introduce this as a typical police shooting.

ETA:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psihala View Post
The firing of a white Dallas police officer who fatally shot her black neighbor inside his own apartment was premature and unfair, an attorney for the officer says.
It's nice to have the luxury of being able to protest her "unfair" result and have the chance that it could be reversed.

Last edited by GenYus234; 25 September 2018 at 04:45 PM.
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  #136  
Old 25 September 2018, 05:23 PM
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GenYus, I think they will try to do it subtly, like using terms associated with that, asking questions that suggest that context. If the shooter testifies, talking about her police training taking over -- that sort of thing. I don't know how much they might be able to invoke while staying in bounds. The shooter's updated narrative about telling the victim to show his hands, and him not complying is a huge step in that direction. Those are things you don't hear from civilians, even when the civilian has shot, say, a home invader in self defense. (Let alone when they've mistakenly shot an innocent person.)
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  #137  
Old 25 September 2018, 05:54 PM
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I would be worried that that could backfire if the jury has negative prejudices against white police officers shooting unarmed black men. Of course, anyone who said they did would be removed but there could be unrecognized (or unstated) bias. Absent the juror stating such, they could only be removed as a peremptory challenge, correct?
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  #138  
Old 25 September 2018, 05:59 PM
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Sure, but I think the evidence is that there is a whole lot more juror bias in favor of white police officers who say they felt threatened by unarmed black men. It's possible that the tide might begin to turn, but I'm betting Dallas will not be at the forefront of that.
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  #139  
Old 25 September 2018, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
I would be worried that that could backfire if the jury has negative prejudices against white police officers shooting unarmed black men. Of course, anyone who said they did would be removed but there could be unrecognized (or unstated) bias.
I've had the thought myself and I get what you're saying (and that for the most part you actually come down on the other side of this issue), but it essentially amounts to... you're concerned maybe a white woman can't get a fair trial for murdering a black man in this country? It may not be absurd--public perception and juror bias are fickle things--but historically, as I'm sure you know, the opposite has been true. But then people were less sensitive to such things historically, so :shrug:

BT

I am sure in a technical sense the officer in question was not acting in an official/sanctioned police capacity and not "on duty." But... why did she have a gun on her? Was she wearing a uniform home? Who trained her to react the way she did (not that I'm faulting training)?

More to the point, if we can agree she probably didn't mean to go into someone else's apartment and shoot them, whether or not she responded as trained to the scenario she believed she was in, how did the error in judgement that led her to the wrong apartment arise? From working a long day as a police officer. And then driving home with a gun from that job.

The DPD can no doubt point to a piece of paper that says she wasn't on-duty per subsection c of paragraph whatever, but I think the circumstances of the event very much have to do with her status as a police officer. Should a police department be allowed to send its officers home, exhausted perhaps to the point of being the equivalent of legally intoxicated (hypothetically speaking) and then wash its hands of them when they make a gross error in judgement on the way home?
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  #140  
Old 25 September 2018, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ASL View Post
Should a police department be allowed to send its officers home, exhausted perhaps to the point of being the equivalent of legally intoxicated (hypothetically speaking) and then wash its hands of them when they make a gross error in judgement on the way home?
That's the crux of the issue, really...
The department has not been transparent in their handling of either side of the investigation. They searched the victims home and released what they "found" there. Did they search the shooter's home? Did they have her take a breathalyzer, or a drug test? Have they released her work schedule so the question of how many hours she'd been working that day could be settled?

They found "drugs" in the victim's apartment, but if the shooter was not there in an official capacity "on-duty" what does that matter? We don't know if Officer Guyger did a gross error in judgement, because the DPD has not released anything about it's investigation into her stated reasons for being in the wrong apartment.
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