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  #41  
Old 25 April 2014, 09:36 PM
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That's sort of my point, the answers are extremely broad and vague so I don't think it's fair to conclude that 20% of Americans would let a mother and fetus die together rather than save one. Similarly I also doubt a quarter of Americans would be ok with aborting the baby while it's on it's way out of the birth canal just for fun.
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  #42  
Old 25 April 2014, 09:38 PM
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I did post a link to more specific polls, where the question was about the life of the woman. Sorry I could not quote them directly, but it did not format well and my phone makes it too much of a hassle to reformat it myself.
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  #43  
Old 25 April 2014, 09:40 PM
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Interesting to know (sorry didn't see your edit). It is pretty concerning that so many people would believe such a thing, it's more than I'd have thought.
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  #44  
Old 25 April 2014, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard W View Post
And how much jail time a baby whose mother dies in childbirth should get. We could probably allow a suspended sentence in those cases. Execution of a minor would certainly seem harsh...
I'm pretty sure Texas would be okay with that.
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  #45  
Old 25 April 2014, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard W View Post
Not really - there are plenty of circumstances under which you're legally allowed to kill a person (more in the USA than there are in the UK - some of the circumstances in the USA are even state sanctioned). Even if you do think a fetus is a person, there are many situations under which you'd be allowed to kill it. "Feeling threatened" is one, in some states of the USA, I believe. It's not a very useful distinction to make.
Sorry, but even in the US it takes a pretty significant reason to justify a killing. No reason is required to obtain a legal abortion.

BTW, the UK and nearly every other nation in the world has "state sanctioned" killing. That's what an Army is for.

Last edited by jimmy101_again; 25 April 2014 at 11:12 PM. Reason: BTW
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  #46  
Old 25 April 2014, 11:18 PM
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The circumstances in the US are state sanctioned, whereas in the UK the killings are merely allowed legally? Huh?
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  #47  
Old 25 April 2014, 11:20 PM
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I would imagine the fact that someone is stealing your blood without your consent, and using it to sustainthemselves is significant. Also, there is the promise of bodily harm and a great deal of pain in the future (not to mention the fact that it is impossible to get away from this person*). That would probaby justify the use of deadly force.


*Not that a fetus is the same as a person. I was just trying to draw out the parallel.

Edit: In response to Jimmy101
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  #48  
Old 25 April 2014, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy101_again View Post
Sorry, but even in the US it takes a pretty significant reason to justify a killing. No reason is required to obtain a legal abortion.
No one has to make a case for self-defense before the fact.
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  #49  
Old 26 April 2014, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard W View Post
And how much jail time a baby whose mother dies in childbirth should get. We could probably allow a suspended sentence in those cases. Execution of a minor would certainly seem harsh...
How is that relevant?
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  #50  
Old 26 April 2014, 12:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geminilee View Post
I would imagine the fact that someone is stealing your blood
Not that this has any bearing on the abortion question whatsoever, but exchange of blood between the pregnant woman and the fetus is incomplete. Gases and small molecules (like simple ions, glucose, amino acids) are exchanged freely, but most larger molecules (most proteins, like albumin, although IgG antibodies are actively transferred) and cells do not cross the placenta.
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  #51  
Old 26 April 2014, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey Blue View Post
All I'm saying is that I'm curious if there is any issue with people just not thinking about all the possibilities. Somebody against abortion in all circumstances (even leaving out extreme ones) is already going to be pretty dead set on the issue, and may just respond out of reflex.
Their hypothetical failure to consider the logical consequences of their position does not obligate me to give them the benefit of the doubt.
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  #52  
Old 26 April 2014, 12:49 AM
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The problem with comparing pregnancy to anything else is that there is no direct comparison to pregnancy. There are always going to be flaws in the analogy that an opponent of either side will easily latch on to.

I think that both opponents and proponents of abortion would benefit from dismissing all analogies and focusing on the facts and philosophies of their stance.
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  #53  
Old 26 April 2014, 04:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey Blue View Post
so I don't think it's fair to conclude that 20% of Americans would let a mother and fetus die together
Um, please familiarize yourself with the following argument:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pa5H_4lBXs
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  #54  
Old 26 April 2014, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chloe View Post
Conversely who really thinks abortion should be illegal under all conditions, including when the fetus is already dead?
Well Savita Halappanavar died in Ireland after the doctors refused to abort her miscarriage (they claimed there was still a heartbeat).
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