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  #21  
Old 25 April 2014, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Beachlife! View Post
I also think that the number of people who self describe as pro-life and prefer both patients die over an abortion are a minuscule minority.
So the argument is really about the circumstances under which an abortion is allowable by law? Gosh, that makes it a lot more complicated than the labels imply...

(eta) Although having said that, I'm basically on the "whenever the woman in question wants one" side. I guess if it's at the point where an emergency caesarian amounts to the same thing, then you should probably do that instead. But that's at least as much of a miniscule minority of cases - if not more of one - than the people you mention.
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  #22  
Old 25 April 2014, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Singing in the Drizzle View Post
Personally I'm anti-abortion because of my beliefs and also at the same time personal choice because beliefs. When I look at the new testament and what Jesus had to say and find myself asking why are Christians forcing their anti-abortion beliefs on others let alone any of their beliefs. Show and teach people better ways in the eyes of God, but never force or judge.
...and this is why "pro-life" simply does not work. You can be anti-abortion and pro-choice. I would love for abortions to be the way Bill Clinton wanted them to be: safe, legal, and rare. In the end, it's not really my choice to make for other people and as such I'm pro giving women the right to choose whether to get an abortion or not. "Pro-life" implies that the other side is "anti-life", which is flat-out absurd.
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  #23  
Old 25 April 2014, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard W View Post
So the argument is really about the circumstances under which an abortion is allowable by law? Gosh, that makes it a lot more complicated than the labels imply...
Not sure if you are being facetious or sarcastic but ...

Yes it does since the question then becomes is the fetus a person or not? That is a non-trivial question. (I'm stating the obvious)

Minutes after fertilization, when you basically have a single cell, is that a person?

An hour before normal birth when you have a fully formed "thing", one that could survive outside the womb, is that a person?

I suspect most people believe there is a line in there somewhere. I also suspect that there is no robust definition of where that line is. All placements of the line are arbitrary, or at least look arbitrary to someone else.

The core argument really has little to do with the law. The law is just how society imposes its view on everyone.
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  #24  
Old 25 April 2014, 08:58 PM
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I don't even think that's the proper question to ask in a legal sense. The question is not "at what point is this baby a human life", it's "at what point should we begin to make it illegal to kill that 'life', whatever it is?". Referring to a fetus or even a newborn baby as a "person" does nothing but frame the debate emotionally. And frankly, if we were truly honest with ourselves, we'd accept that in actuality that point is likely *past* conception. Every now and then these stories come out that some teenaged girl has a baby and then leaves it in the trash to die. How often, if ever, are these girls charged with murder? If it's okay to give girls a freebie on abandoning a newborn child - which, trolley question or no, is if anything far less humane and causes far more suffering than a medical termination of a pregnancy - then logically I see no reason why it should *not* be okay to allow abortions right up until 5 minutes before birth, if that's what the woman wants to do.

If these so-called pro-lifers disagree, then fine. Get into some local DA post and prosecute one of these teenage mothers for murder or attempted murder, and see what the community thinks of it. Better make sure it's a white girl though; black people are too easy to demonize and not get your true point across.
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  #25  
Old 25 April 2014, 09:00 PM
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Just to be clear, and I don't know what the law typically does, but if a woman gives birth to a live baby and then throws it in the trash to die I think she should be punished.
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  #26  
Old 25 April 2014, 09:01 PM
Ryda Wong, EBfCo. Ryda Wong, EBfCo. is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Slick View Post
The question is not "at what point is this baby a human life", it's "at what point should we begin to make it illegal to kill that 'life', whatever it is?".
Or, rather, at what point does the woman's right to bodily autonomy become superseded by the developing fetus's right to develop.

In many states, currently, a dead woman has more right to bodily autonomy than a pregnant one.
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  #27  
Old 25 April 2014, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by jimmy101_again View Post
Not sure if you are being facetious or sarcastic but ...

Yes it does since the question then becomes is the fetus a person or not?
No, it doesn't. Even fully-fledged people doing to another person what fetuses do to their mothers would not be allowed to continue to do so without the woman's consent.
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  #28  
Old 25 April 2014, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Beachlife! View Post
I think you missed Jimmy's point. I also think that the number of people who self describe as pro-life and prefer both patients die over an abortion are a minuscule minority.
I was just pointing out that some who choose the pro-life label are decidedly not pro-life.

Also, I don't think 20% (according to this gallup poll) is a "miniscule minority". And, I may be misreading it, but I think that is 20% of ALL people, not just 20% of "pro-lifers".
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  #29  
Old 25 April 2014, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by jimmy101_again View Post
Yes it does since the question then becomes is the fetus a person or not?
Not really - there are plenty of circumstances under which you're legally allowed to kill a person (more in the USA than there are in the UK - some of the circumstances in the USA are even state sanctioned). Even if you do think a fetus is a person, there are many situations under which you'd be allowed to kill it. "Feeling threatened" is one, in some states of the USA, I believe. It's not a very useful distinction to make.
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  #30  
Old 25 April 2014, 09:13 PM
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@Geminilee:

I'm curious how that question was taken; I could see a fair amount of people who don't really think about all possible results when answering such a poll.

I mean, and maybe I'm being naive, but I cannot imagine 1/5 of people polled would prefer both mother and child die rather than allow for an emergency abortion.

I could be wrong..
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  #31  
Old 25 April 2014, 09:15 PM
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You know, for someone who brings up language use in abortion discussions, you're pretty free with emotional and inaccurate terms like "child."
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  #32  
Old 25 April 2014, 09:23 PM
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Free.. That one time?

I was trying to phrase it from the perspective of a pro-lifer who is against abortion in all situations. They likely view it as a child. If asked "Would you be ok with an abortion in the event both the mother and child would die if one was not performed" I suspect some of that 20% would say yes. However, of course, there is no way to know.
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  #33  
Old 25 April 2014, 09:25 PM
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I am not sure how the question was asked. To me, though, "no exceptions" sounds kind of like they mean no exceptions. I will try and look for a better poll.

However, an argument from ignorance (opr disbelief) is not very convincing to me. "I don't believe that they meant X" does nothing to prove that they did not mean X.


ETA: I tried to pull specific polls from here, but the formatting went all wonky. At any rate, when the question was specifically about the woman's life, 9-10% STILL answered that it should be illegal. That is not a miniscule minority, either.

Last edited by geminilee; 25 April 2014 at 09:34 PM.
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  #34  
Old 25 April 2014, 09:29 PM
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I don't see any reason to believe that the answer they chose means that they would think that both mother and child should die rather than just choosing the death of the child. I work in a very conservative part of the country and I have never met anyone with this opinion nor have I ever met someone that I think might have this opinion. I would guess that the few people who hold this opinion don't bother to nuance the label of their view beyond 'anti-abortion'.
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  #35  
Old 25 April 2014, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey Blue View Post
Free.. That one time?
I was thinking about all the other times you've said "child" and "baby" in abortion discussion, and I've called you on it, and you've said you'd be more careful.

Quote:
I was trying to phrase it from the perspective of a pro-lifer who is against abortion in all situations. They likely view it as a child. If asked "Would you be ok with an abortion in the event both the mother and child would die if one was not performed" I suspect some of that 20% would say yes. However, of course, there is no way to know.
They don't really think it's a child. Ask them how much jail time mothers who kill their children should get. Then ask them how much jail time women who have abortions should get.
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  #36  
Old 25 April 2014, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Beachlife! View Post
I work in a very conservative part of the country and I have never met anyone with this opinion nor have I ever met someone that I think might have this opinion.
That seems an odd thing to ask the people you meet.
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  #37  
Old 25 April 2014, 09:30 PM
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Fortunately I wasn't doing that, I was just expressing my curiosity for more information. I even said I could be wrong and that I may just be naive.

Also maybe I missed a section but I see it as a choice between various options with one being "Illegal under all circumstances". All I'm saying is that I'm curious if there is any issue with people just not thinking about all the possibilities. Somebody against abortion in all circumstances (even leaving out extreme ones) is already going to be pretty dead set on the issue, and may just respond out of reflex.
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  #38  
Old 25 April 2014, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Chloe View Post
I was thinking about all the other times you've said "child" and "baby" in abortion discussion, and I've called you on it, and you've said you'd be more careful.
I'll be honest in that I cannot recall every single abortion debate we've had, but I don't recall a single event like the one you describe. I normally try to be very careful not only because I believe in using proper terminology but also because of my medical background.

Again, I could be wrong.


Quote:
They don't really think it's a child. Ask them how much jail time mothers who kill their children should get. Then ask them how much jail time women who have abortions should get.
Could be.
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  #39  
Old 25 April 2014, 09:34 PM
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I think the poll is ridiculous, frankly. Who really thinks abortion should be legal under all circumstances, including being performed by untrained personnel or in non-sterile conditions or without the woman's consent? Conversely who really thinks abortion should be illegal under all conditions, including when the fetus is already dead?
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  #40  
Old 25 April 2014, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chloe View Post
Ask them how much jail time mothers who kill their children should get. Then ask them how much jail time women who have abortions should get.
And how much jail time a baby whose mother dies in childbirth should get. We could probably allow a suspended sentence in those cases. Execution of a minor would certainly seem harsh...
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