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  #41  
Old 19 April 2009, 06:17 PM
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rhiandmoi rhiandmoi is offline
 
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Originally Posted by ASL View Post
Who cares what the shipping companies want? They do not dictate US foreign policy, nor should they. I would have thought we could all agree that, at the very least, it is a bad day for the country when corporate interests dictate US policy. I know, I know, some of you think this is already the case, in which case you should especially be glad. These arguments against the use of lethal force in the face of opponents (criminals, mind you) with a lethal force capability of their own are truly baffling to me.

Also, the kidnapping analogy doesn't apply: even then the kidnappers still hope for a ransom because they are the only ones who know the victim is dead or at the very least are able to kill the victim in private out of range of authorities. In these cases we would either know the hostages are dead as soon as the pirates left without them or know exactly where the pirates are because they'd have to stay on the hijacked ship to prevent us from finding the bodies. In that case, there would be no escape for them and no profit.


Let's make one thing clear. A large merchant ship like the Maersk Alabama is WORTHLESS to a pirate. In fact, it's worth even less than nothing. There's nowhere they can take it to offload it and sell the goods or the ship without sticking out like a soar thumb. They either take hostages, or they get stuck with less than nothing. The best they could hope for is to off load what little goods they can into the small boat they road out on and run for cover before the cavalry arrives. If the crew is killed, there’s no reason not to bomb the shit out of the ship they hijacked (because, again, shipping companies don't dictate government policy). If they do take hostages, then nothing has changed...

When hostages are taken they are taken to Somali and held prisoner. The local government is in such disarray that it doesn't matter what kind of sore thumb they stick out like. It is rare that they are held hostage on a lifeboat out in the middle of the ocean.

I also don't see how private companies having problems with private citizens is even a foreign policy issue in the first place. It is not like the Somali military is pirating cargo vessels.

I see that we are having a major ideological disagreement here and that we will not find a resolution. Needless to say, I do think that shipping companies should have the right to not have their ships bombed to shit, that they have the right to try to keep their crew alive by whatever means necessary.
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  #42  
Old 19 April 2009, 06:17 PM
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ASL ASL is offline
 
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Originally Posted by AnglRdr View Post
Uh...no.

Of course, I didn't say that you did, right???????????
I guess I'm confused by where "just as bad for the US to use corporations to carry out foreign policy interests" came from. Do you consider US government intervention when US citizens get in trouble on the high seas an example of corporations being used to carry out foreign policy interests, or was your comment neither here nor there and just more of an observation relating to something else entirely, like the use of security contractors in Iraq?
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  #43  
Old 19 April 2009, 06:18 PM
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AnglRdr AnglRdr is offline
 
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Originally Posted by ASL View Post
I guess I'm confused by where "just as bad for the US to use corporations to carry out foreign policy interests" came from. Do you consider US government intervention when US citizens get in trouble on the high seas an example of corporations being used to carry out foreign policy interests, or was your comment neither here nor there and just more of an observation relating to something else entirely, like the use of security contractors in Iraq?
It was merely the counter of the statement you were making, nothing more, nothing less.
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  #44  
Old 21 April 2009, 08:55 AM
Troberg Troberg is offline
 
 
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Originally Posted by Zachary Fizz View Post
Which professionals, Troberg?
SWAT teams and military forces with similar roles.

Basically, those who operates at ranges below 50-70 m, as accuracy beyond that is bad, and the time needed for the projectile to reach its target becomes unreasonably long.

This wikipedia page provide a good starting point for further reading (Systema makes most of the airsoft weapons used professionally):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systema_Engineering

This site also has some information:

http://www.systema-gov.com/
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  #45  
Old 21 April 2009, 09:31 AM
Zachary Fizz Zachary Fizz is offline
 
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Thanks for the links, Troberg - interesting stuff. I went through some FIBUA training myself, but we used blank rounds in normal weapons. I don't think airsoft had left Japan in those days.

I guess airsoft would allow you to know if you had been hit, and presumably it becomes cost effective when you factor in the cost of rounds.
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  #46  
Old 21 April 2009, 11:21 AM
Troberg Troberg is offline
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zachary Fizz View Post
we used blank rounds in normal weapons. I don't think airsoft had left Japan in those days.
Blank rounds have several drawbacks:

* Noise. When fired indoors often close other people, it may damage hearing.
* Real weapons means there's a risk of live ammo being used by mistake. such as seen in the incident in Spain a while ago.
* At close range, the gunpowder residue might be a hazard to the target.
* Lack of hit detection means that some kind of arbiter is needed. In close quarters combat indoors, this is at best impractical, at worst creates problems such as giving an ambush away or causing "panic firing" when unexpectedly standing face to face with the arbiter.
* Lack of accurate hit detection means that it's sometimes hard to get a feel for how vulnerable you are to fire. For instance, running across a corridor, from one door to another, is fairly safe (as far as such things go), because an attacker doesn't have the time to react, aim and fire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zachary Fizz View Post
I guess airsoft would allow you to know if you had been hit, and presumably it becomes cost effective when you factor in the cost of rounds.
Yep, you feel it distinctly, a sharp tap or snap.

As for cost, 5000 rounds cost about $20, and then you get decent quality. In other words, a lot cheaper.

What you don't get is real recoil, but that could be trained on the shooting range. With airsoft pistols, you get some "recoil" as the slide moves as a real slide, so there is some moving mass. Pistols are usually gas powered (usually propane, but the more adventurous use the more powerful CO2), though, which adds a little to the cost, but not much.

You also don't get empty shells flying all over the place.
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  #47  
Old 22 April 2009, 02:35 AM
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Mateus Mateus is offline
 
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Canada

Jim Miclash...Mcila...NBC News reporting that the email is bogus

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archi...21/1902281.asp
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  #48  
Old 22 April 2009, 05:50 AM
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Don Enrico Don Enrico is offline
 
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...and the fourth comment on that page reads:

Quote:
Thanks for putting a stop to this before it got started. You beat Snopes to it!
The ultimate goal of everybody one the internet: Debunking something faster then snopes.com!

Don Enrico
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  #49  
Old 22 April 2009, 06:46 AM
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snopes snopes is offline
 
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Tantrum

Comment: And now,the Real story comes out; not in the National Biased
Media,not on any of the Used to be Major TV networks but only via inside
info from one Patriot to another and then,we get the Truth about our so
called CIC and his gang of advisors.

What may come next in case we are ever attacked as per 911,that will
really prove to be the Crisis to end all Crises.

Pass it on old Pal.
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  #50  
Old 23 April 2009, 04:12 PM
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snopes snopes is offline
 
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Jolly Roger Obama OK'd 2 SEAL teams for pirates

President Obama dispatched two separate teams of Navy commandos to carry out last week's rescue of a merchant ship captain held hostage by Somali pirates but left the operational details and rules of engagement to military commanders, National Security Adviser James. L. Jones said.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...s-for-pirates/
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  #51  
Old 23 April 2009, 05:16 PM
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Photo Bob Photo Bob is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mnotr2 View Post
When the pirates decided to attack a US flagged ship with the goal of extorting money by the threat of violence they sealed their fate. If the US continues its policy of not negotiating with kidnappers/terrorists and things continue to end in this manner for the attackers, the best outcome will be no more attacks against US ships.

Mnot - sometimes you have to shoot them in the face - r2
A policy that has worked well for Isreal. They've had no problems since taking a similar stance way back when.

It worked for the Japanese in the forties, too. You remember, how they showed America that they could attack at will. And then the American people hung their heads and said, "we have no chance against such military might" and laid down their weapons.

Photo "as a matter of fact I am a smart ass, why do ask?" Bob
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  #52  
Old 27 April 2009, 04:10 PM
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Hmmm ... it occurs to me to ask ... why a highly-trained, fully-equipped SEAL Team aboard the USS Bainbridge – already outnumbering (by 5-to-1) an opposing force of four half-naked, illiterate Somali natives armed only with 50-year-old rifles, who were too damnably stupid to have sufficient gasoline to return to shore – would be required to “wait on backup” coming from half-way around the world.
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  #53  
Old 04 May 2009, 02:23 PM
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DemonWolf DemonWolf is offline
 
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Wolf

Pirates seized after threatening French navy ship

Perhaps they were under the impression that being French, they'd just surrender!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeUSooner View Post
Hmmm ... it occurs to me to ask ... why a highly-trained, fully-equipped SEAL Team aboard the USS Bainbridge – already outnumbering (by 5-to-1) an opposing force of four half-naked, illiterate Somali natives armed only with 50-year-old rifles, who were too damnably stupid to have sufficient gasoline to return to shore – would be required to “wait on backup” coming from half-way around the world.
I believe the SEALs were the backup. The Bainbridge, while having many talented and highly skilled professionals aboard, probably lacked sharpshooters and people with Hostage Rescue training. SEALs are not garrisonned aboard every naval vessal, and there are different types of SEAL teams.

IIRC, SEAL Team 6, out of Dam Neck, VA, specialises in counterterrorism and HRT, and has two platoons dedicated to training for maritime counterterrorism scenarios. This is probably the team sent to Bainbridge.
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