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  #41  
Old 27 July 2007, 08:48 PM
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I'll have to look that up. I just remember reading, I think it was The Guide for the Perplexed, and being surprised at the answer, which was the opposite of what a Catholic would have expected it to be.
Well, I'm no expert myself, and I'd have to go and look at my notes, but I think eating pork was considered acceptable in extremis, just as it is in Islam. I also believe the question of whether or not one is doing so pubicly weighs in here. D'oh! We need someone who has a clue, here.
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  #42  
Old 27 July 2007, 08:49 PM
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You must die only to avoid:



3. Adultery

Avril
Any sense of how many Jews have died recently to avoid adultery?
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  #43  
Old 27 July 2007, 08:50 PM
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Well, I'm no expert myself, and I'd have to go and look at my notes, but I think eating pork was considered acceptable in extremis, just as it is in Islam. I also believe the question of whether or not one is doing so pubicly weighs in here. D'oh! We need someone who has a clue, here.
Being Irish Catholic hardly makes me an expert!
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  #44  
Old 27 July 2007, 08:53 PM
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Any sense of how many Jews have died recently to avoid adultery?
I wondered about that one, myself. But Dr. S was majorly indimidating, so I was selective about my questions. I did ask about the sin of not getting married--suppose nobody ever wanted you? Jewish dating services, he said. And if that didn't work? "Well, God does not require what is not possible of us," he said. He seemed amused. He probably wasn't as scary as he seemed to me. But I was far too terrified to ever ask about the dying to avoid adultery thing.

Avril
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  #45  
Old 27 July 2007, 08:56 PM
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Some things just can't slip by...

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Originally Posted by Chloe View Post
Well, I'm no expert myself, and I'd have to go and look at my notes, but I think eating pork was considered acceptable in extremis, just as it is in Islam. I also believe the question of whether or not one is doing so pubicly weighs in here. D'oh! We need someone who has a clue, here.
Sorry.
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  #46  
Old 27 July 2007, 08:58 PM
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The standard three are usually taking of innocent life, idolatry, and unlawful sex, which includes incest, etc. I did find this: http://www.hods.org/newarticles/pittchron.htm speaking to halacha, though not to Maimonides in particular.

ETA: Damnit, Hambubba, I was trying so hard not to spell it "publically." Good spot!
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  #47  
Old 27 July 2007, 09:09 PM
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I do not get that the OP writer views not eating pork as an attack on Christianity. I get that the OP writer feels that there is something very hypocritical about the ACLU approving of such things as banning pork in the cafeteria because of a certain religious group, which by its very nature would seem to endorse the belief that one should not eat pork, while not favoring, say, a similar situation with another religious group.
I suppose one distinction here (as far as whether or not the ACLU is being hypocritical) is that students aren't being compelled to do anything particularly through these kinds of restrictions. The civil liberties violation is far greater if you are forced to do something you have convictions against than if you are not given the opportunity to do something that you already don't have particularly strong feelings about.

For example, if you have one set of students with food proscriptions and one set without, then it comes to state-provided meals for those students, honoring the food proscription in preparing those meals serves the needs of one set and does no active harm to the other.

Now, if you had a group of students from Sect X that could never eat pork, and a group from Sect Y that are required to eat pork every Wednesday, then you'd run into a genuine conflict (and presumably would have to provide two separate meal options on Wednesdays).

On the vegetarian issue, I think the general sense (the arguments of Vegan nutrionists notwithstanding) is that not providing children with meat in one of their major daily meals is doing them some degree of harm (especially so long as the FDA food pyramid guidelines read the way they do). But I would think that a school in that case should have to offer a vegetarian alternative of equal value. Why not do this with Kosher/Halal offerings? Why not always have two menus? Presumably because we're very skeptical about "separate but equal" divisions in this country, and see them as best avoided unless there's no other viable alternative.

Why does vegetarianism not come out as well as Islam in this comparison? Hard to say, except that I think there's still a lot of negativity in the larger culture towards vegetarianism. It's also seen more as a "lifestyle choice" rather than a religious doctrine (except for those religions that are also vegetarian). And "lifestyle choices" are lower on the totem pole of respect than "religious belief" or "biological determinism" (under which allergic students might find support -- and it's also way so much of the gay rights movement has focused on a presumed biological basis for homosexuality, because in our culture that affords more respect than "lifestyle choice").

--Logoboros
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  #48  
Old 27 July 2007, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Logoboros View Post
Why not do this with Kosher/Halal offerings? Why not always have two menus? Presumably because we're very skeptical about "separate but equal" divisions in this country, and see them as best avoided unless there's no other viable alternative.
Well, it is a little more difficult to offer variety, but I would support something like this. The kosher and halal options at my public university cafeteria system never bothered me. Being required to keep kosher/halal at a public school would have.

And there is much, much, much more to this than the pork. That's just what some people seem to focus on.

Avril
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  #49  
Old 27 July 2007, 09:15 PM
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I don't like the idea of meat at all, but I like the idea of hal-al and kosher meat even less. Since the prohibition is on non-hal-al and non-kosher meat, and since neither children nor adults need meat at every meal, it seems to me that providing a vegetarian food option would cover this without upsetting either Moslems, Jews, or people who object to the killing of animals in inhumane ways.
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  #50  
Old 27 July 2007, 09:16 PM
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Allowing the students time during school to pray is their right under the Free Exercise clause of the First Amendment. As is allowing Christian, Wiccan or Hindu students to pray. The difference is that Muslims are obligated to pray at specific times. And that obligation must be allowed.

Christians, Wiccans, Hindus, et al do not have specific times to pray. But if they wish to pray during the 15 minutes the school gives the Muslum students to pray, they can. Or during lunch. Or breaks. Or before or after school. Or even during class if they do it silently. It sounds from the article that the entire school is given a break, and the Muslim kids use that break to pray.

Not serving pork at lunch. This one is more grey than the other. It could be viewed as either accomodating the students' Free Exercise rights or as the Government establishing a religion. But I think it falls just barely under Free Exercise. As the students couldn't eat the school lunches at all if pork were prepared in the kitchen.

I've not got any real objections to no peanut butter in a public school kitchen and I kind of liken this to that.

How does a school 'force' kids to 'become Muslium'? If that was the case, then shame on them. But was it? Or did they just study about Islam for a few weeks?

If they studied the history of Islam, good for them. But they'd better also be studying the history of Christianity, Judaism and other religions as well. There was no information on exactly what the school did in the article.

It was so slantedly written that I can't take it at face value.
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  #51  
Old 27 July 2007, 09:23 PM
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Here's a more objective article. Hambubba also linked a few earlier in the thread.

Avril

ETA: Here's what the ACLU has to say.
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  #52  
Old 27 July 2007, 09:36 PM
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Of course! It's Bush's fault!
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  #53  
Old 27 July 2007, 09:39 PM
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OK, Avril, from your first link:

In the comments:

Quote:
I think it's pretty pathetic that our children can NOT even say the pledge of the legions in our schools today- yet we are catering to the Muslims wishes- If anything is mentioned about God in the schools -shame on them...
Maybe our world is the way it is because God is being taken away more and more- what happened to Freedom of speech?
BTW, that's a record for me, 2 sig changes in one day...
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  #54  
Old 28 July 2007, 12:31 AM
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Apparently they were French
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  #55  
Old 28 July 2007, 02:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULTRAGOTHA View Post
How does a school 'force' kids to 'become Muslium'? If that was the case, then shame on them. But was it? Or did they just study about Islam for a few weeks?
Quote:
Originally Posted by snopes View Post
Seventh-graders at a San Francisco-area school were required, even after 9/11, to "become Muslims" for two full weeks as part of California's world history curriculum.

This included reciting the Muslim profession of faith
"Allah is the only true God and Muhammad is his messenger" and chanting "Praise be to Allah" in response to teacher prompts.

To Muslims, someone saying the "profession of faith" makes someone a Muslim for life, so ya technically they were Muslim. But in Islam everything is about the intention, so if your intention were not to be a Muslim when you said it, then you really wouldn't be, but some Muslims would still consider you Muslim (YMMV among Muslims). Reading about what the Quran means or about the religion is one thing, making someone say the profession of faith is quite another (in any faith, not just Islam).

MG, was a Muslim for 12 years
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  #56  
Old 28 July 2007, 03:24 AM
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I vote for schools having a religions class like I had in class (students can choose to take the class of course) and go over all the major religions.
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  #57  
Old 28 July 2007, 03:37 AM
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Pork smork, the K-8 is segregating the girls from boys for religious reasons? How can that possibly be constitutional?
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  #58  
Old 28 July 2007, 05:24 AM
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segregating in terms of the area in the room where they pray.. girls on the left, guys on the right. Some Orthodox Christians do the same thing.
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  #59  
Old 28 July 2007, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Xtians aren't required to eat pork.
Well, you Americans have not understood it, but it's not a proper Christmas dinner without a huge piece of ham in the center of the Christmas table.

This is a proper Christmas dinner:



All the images at http://rpglab.net/troberg/gallery/view.php?gid=5

Some even put this on the table: http://rpglab.net/troberg/gallery/view.php?gid=1&phid=5 , and yes, it is what it looks like.
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  #60  
Old 28 July 2007, 07:19 AM
Troberg Troberg is offline
 
 
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Quote:
segregating in terms of the area in the room where they pray.. girls on the left, guys on the right.
And only during actual prayer.
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