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  #21  
Old 27 July 2007, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by hambubba View Post
No Doug, that's "how do YOU like it now?" It doesn't address the issue, just the poster's apparent antagonism toward Christianity, while ignoring the fact that Islam is a religion, apparently.
I didn't read anything at all in the OP about Christianity. What are you seeing that I'm not?

Or...I'm just confused. What are we talking about now? Are we talking about the post about how "they" ought to like it now that "they're" not getting the benefit? I'm getting really tired of the us v. "them" posts around here.

Avril
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  #22  
Old 27 July 2007, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Avril View Post
Or...I'm just confused. What are we talking about now? Are we talking about the post about how "they" ought to like it now that "they're" not getting the benefit? I'm getting really tired of the us v. "them" posts around here.
Me too. And, since no one else stepped in to point it out to him, I thought I would.

Which, of course, makes me the bad guy, because I am one of "them". I'm starting to think that the board rules have been amended to forbid Christians from pointing out hypocrisy. Since, you know, all of us are.
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  #23  
Old 27 July 2007, 06:03 PM
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Hee, hee... hambubba, I almost wish we still had user ranks (or whatever you called them) under our names, so I could change mine to read "One of THEM."

Maybe I'll make that a sig line. I haven't had one in a long time.

Avril
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  #24  
Old 27 July 2007, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug4.7 View Post
So it's not okay to do "right-wing fundie Christian" things but okay to do Muslim things? How is that not hypocritical?

"I'm gonna fight those Christians but let the Muslims have what they want...."
I think one response to this (which I tried to indicate in my first post about no school on Sundays) is that there are already accomodations for Christians (and Judeo-Christian culture) built into the school system -- we're so used to them, we don't even think about them as even having their origins in religious practice. I'm sure a Muslim student could point out a heck of a lot more things in our school system that accomodate or facilitate Christian belief and doctrine (or things emerging from it -- all that representational art on our walls, for example) that we're basically completely blind to because a) we're used to it, and b) we haven't really had to deal with incorporating other values systems into our institutions so far. Even American secularism has many of its values derived from Western christianity -- and it takes someone from outside that tradition to point them out.

All that said, I do think the "Be Muslim for a Week" thing sounds incredibly problematic. If the goal was to experience another culture (in which case it would make more sense to be an Arab or a Malaysian or a Persian for a week), then I can see how religious material is unavoidable in some respects -- I don't actually know enough about the subject myself, but couldn't it be that the "prayer" phrases are just parts of forumlaic greetings, like "goodbye" ("God be with you")?

And I think it's still pretty common to find public gradeschoolers dressing up and living as Pilgrims in November (if only for a day or two or a couple of plays), so there are corresponding precedents.

But the description given in the OP (by a biased source, of course) sounds like this may be a case of good intentions rather horribly executed.

--Logoboros
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  #25  
Old 27 July 2007, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by alsachti View Post
Christmas, Easter... are christian celebrations, but are also secular holidays. That's not a question of religion, but of cultural tradition.
Christmas is now a Christian celebration, but it was not always. That holiday was well old before Christ was born.
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  #26  
Old 27 July 2007, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug4.7 View Post
They do worship the same God.
Yes, I guess that's the similarity at the most basic level. I am talking about the differences at a deeper level. The moral framework/family structures are very close between Christian and Muslim families. Based on my unscientific survey of the families that I know about, all other things being equal, Christians are distinguishable from Muslims only at a very superficial level. Essentially, they act the same. They even use the same words to rationalize their morality. Based on the same unscientific survey across 2 countries(America and India), the difference between American Christians and Indian Christians is larger than the difference between Indian Christians and Indian Muslims.

I know my unscientific survey may now be accrate, but I someone posted an survey on snopes that on fundamental issues, moderates across the 3 religions do not disagree with each other; and fundamentalists across the 3 religions do not disagree with each other. However, the biggest difference was between fundamentalists and moderates of all 3 religions. Actally, the conculsion was that the 3 religions do not have to fear each other; rather the moderates have to fear the militants

Which makes me think:- Why don't the big 3 kiss and make up already? You know you want to!! Just acknowledge that there are multiple ways to get to the same God and form a single religion. It shouldn't be too difficult among the moderates, should it?
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  #27  
Old 27 July 2007, 08:45 PM
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The thing that gets me, in hambubba's article, is why universities should feel compelled to provide special facilities for Muslims to wash their feet.
Well, universities compete for students. They've just found a new group of students to try to catch. It's not stranger than competing with parties, sporting facilities and all the other stuff they use. It's not about religion, it's plain old economics.
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  #28  
Old 27 July 2007, 08:52 PM
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But these are public universities, not private. Even if chapel attendance was voluntary, can you imagine the outcry if there were University-sponsored chapel services at a public university?

Avril
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  #29  
Old 27 July 2007, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Avril View Post
But these are public universities, not private. Even if chapel attendance was voluntary, can you imagine the outcry if there were University-sponsored chapel services at a public university?

Avril
But public universities still build (non-denominational) chapels. Tax money is going into providing a facility.

--Logoboros

ETA: Also, though I don't have access to any hard numbers right now, I believe many student organizations with religious backgrounds can still get money from the university. This is certainly true here at the University of Missouri.
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  #30  
Old 27 July 2007, 08:55 PM
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They do? Where? My public university had an auditorium religious groups could use, but you could also show movies there; it was not at all religious in appearance or strictly religious in function. And it wasn't called a chapel.

Avril
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  #31  
Old 27 July 2007, 09:05 PM
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Making non-muslims say the Shahada (testament of faith) is just plain wrong. That is what someone says if they really want to become Muslim, why are they making students say it? You can't just be Muslim for a couple of weeks then not. How many muslims are going to try to tell them that they are Muslim now and try to tell them what to do? Sounds kinda ridiculous but it could happen.

I believe in learning about other religions, but are those same Muslims reading the Bible too? Umm, I would expect not. If they aren't willing to read the other religious books, then others should not be expected to read/recite theirs. [personal experience] One Arab/Muslim woman I knew yelled at her daughter not to touch a bible [/personal experience].

MG, been there, done that, got the infidel tshirt to prove it
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  #32  
Old 27 July 2007, 09:09 PM
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This is starting to remind me of the Hooters thread, where people started quibbling over whether those who complained were hypocrites or not. Is such accommodation for Muslims constitutional, or isn't it? I would say no. But then, I'm taking my cues from my hero on church and state, John Leland, so mileage varies.

Avril
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  #33  
Old 27 July 2007, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
I don't see what the big deal is about not serving pork. Xtians aren't required to eat pork. If it's important to you that your child eat pork, give him some bacon for breakfast, or serve her sausage for dinner.
Now, I understand that eating pork on Easter became a Spanish tradition after 1492 so that Jews who converted to Christianity to avoid deportation but who still practiced their religion secretly could be exposed as crypto Jews. As Maimodes had advised that while it was OK to falsely deny being Jewish in order to save ones life, but not to eat pork, this was an effective method for ferreting out the truth.

So I can see why the OP views the diminishment of the role of pork in students' diets as an attack on christianity. Without pork, how will we know who the Jews are?
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  #34  
Old 27 July 2007, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Avril View Post
They do? Where? My public university had an auditorium religious groups could use, but you could also show movies there; it was not at all religious in appearance or strictly religious in function. And it wasn't called a chapel.

Avril
Well, we have a chapel here (pews and everything -- though no particular religious icons).

A quick google search turns up campus chapels at:

University of Maryland, Wichita State University, University of Utah, Virginia Tech, University of Pittsburgh (though it used to be private), Michigan State University, etc.

And those are ones that actually call their chapels "chapels" -- no doubt there are many very chapel-like things that have been given alternative names (the Such-and-such Building, Center, Pavillion, Room, etc.).

So it is a real phenomenon.

--Logoboros
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  #35  
Old 27 July 2007, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by PatYoung View Post
Now, I understand that eating pork on Easter became a Spanish tradition after 1492 so that Jews who converted to Christianity to avoid deportation but who still practiced their religion secretly could be exposed as crypto Jews. As Maimodes had advised that while it was OK to falsely deny being Jewish in order to save ones life, but not to eat pork, this was an effective method for ferreting out the truth.

So I can see why the OP views the diminishment of the role of pork in students' diets as an attack on christianity. Without pork, how will we know who the Jews are?
Those Spanish sure know how to pork people
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  #36  
Old 27 July 2007, 09:32 PM
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I do not get that the OP writer views not eating pork as an attack on Christianity. I get that the OP writer feels that there is something very hypocritical about the ACLU approving of such things as banning pork in the cafeteria because of a certain religious group, which by its very nature would seem to endorse the belief that one should not eat pork, while not favoring, say, a similar situation with another religious group.

Would you support a ban on all meat products because vegetarians do not want to eat meat?

Avril
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  #37  
Old 27 July 2007, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by PatYoung View Post
Now, I understand that eating pork on Easter became a Spanish tradition after 1492 so that Jews who converted to Christianity to avoid deportation but who still practiced their religion secretly could be exposed as crypto Jews. As Maimodes had advised that while it was OK to falsely deny being Jewish in order to save ones life, but not to eat pork, this was an effective method for ferreting out the truth.
My understanding was that the eating of pork to save one's life was justifiable under Jewish law, even according to Maimonides, and in fact preferable to giving up one's life, though the second book of Maccabees glorifies those who would die rather than do so.
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  #38  
Old 27 July 2007, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Avril View Post
I do not get that the OP writer views not eating pork as an attack on Christianity. I get that the OP writer feels that there is something very hypocritical about the ACLU approving of such things as banning pork in the cafeteria because of a certain religious group, which by its very nature would seem to endorse the belief that one should not eat pork, while not favoring, say, a similar situation with another religious group.

Would you support a ban on all meat products because vegetarians do not want to eat meat?

Avril
My kid's public school used to serve pizza without meat on Fridays during Lent. Is this an intrusion on the right of students to eat sausage?
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  #39  
Old 27 July 2007, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Chloe View Post
My understanding was that the eating of pork to save one's life was justifiable under Jewish law, even according to Maimonides, and in fact preferable to giving up one's life, though the second book of Maccabees glorifies those who would die rather than do so.
I'll have to look that up. I just remember reading, I think it was The Guide for the Perplexed, and being surprised at the answer, which was the opposite of what a Catholic would have expected it to be.
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  #40  
Old 27 July 2007, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by PatYoung View Post
My kid's public school used to serve pizza without meat on Fridays during Lent. Is this an intrusion on the right of students to eat sausage?
It is not about a right to eat sausage, though presumably you could bring your lunch from home if you did not want to eat sausage. It would seem a little unfair to ban sausage in general from the lunchroom, particularly if for some reason that was all you had to eat. And I would think that serving meatless fare on Fridays during lunch, with no other options, would appear to be an endorsement of observing Lent. But you're making the same argument again without addressing the question.

Is it, or is it not, constitutional?

With regard to Jewish law, as the chair of Judaic Studies once told me:

"You can eat a pork sandwich and wash it down with milk on the Day of Atonement if that will save your life."

You must die only to avoid:

1. Idolatry
2. Shedding innocent blood
3. Adultery

Avril
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