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  #41  
Old 17 October 2007, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Dondi View Post
But I think a line is crossed if we are forcing our children to believe that homosexual behavior is ok.
How exactly does one force a person to believe anything?

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The homosexual issue is different than the racial issue because homosexuality is based on a certain social behavior, not a genetic inheritance.
Cite, please.

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It is the acceptance of the behavior, not the people themselves that I have problems with.
So you have no problems with gay people so long as they deny their sexuality?
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  #42  
Old 17 October 2007, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Friends of Alfred View Post
And the homosexual buscuits.
Fabulous! Can't wait.
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  #43  
Old 17 October 2007, 05:42 PM
Ryda Wong, EBfCo. Ryda Wong, EBfCo. is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Dondi View Post
But I think a line is crossed if we are forcing our children to believe that homosexual behavior is ok.
I'll agree to that only if we eliminate all references to the "traditional family" as being acceptable as well. it's either all or none.



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Originally Posted by Dondi View Post
That's the kind of morality that I'm talking about that should be taught at home.
Fine, so long as hetro models aren't talked about either.



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Originally Posted by Dondi View Post
We need to stick to what's common. To the morality in it's proper place that we can all agree upon.
This last sentence, is it English? As far as the first? No. We don't. We need to be inclusive and accepting, not common.



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Originally Posted by Dondi View Post
Am I being a bigot because I think homosexuality is wrong? Or am I just adhering to my convictions? Should I change my convictions just to be "politically correct"?
The answers:

1. Yes, you are a bigot.

2. Yes, you are adhering to your convictions. Those convictions are ridiculious and despicable.

3. No, you should change your convictions so that you aren't a ridiculious and despicable person. If you don't want to do that, don't whine when people call you ridiculious and despicable.



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Originally Posted by Dondi View Post
The homosexual issue is different than the racial issue because homosexuality is based on a certain social behavior, not a genetic inheritance.
Sez you.....Many other's disagree. And part of the racial issue is related to social behavior.

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Originally Posted by Dondi View Post
It is the acceptance of the behavior, not the people themselves that I have problems with.
I'll tell you what kind of behavior that we should, as a culture, not accept. The kind of behavior that is judgemental and overbearing.

In order for freedom to exist, that kind of behavior, I think, needs to be, literally and publicly, shamed and censured.
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  #44  
Old 17 October 2007, 05:43 PM
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I don't know that it's necessarily a moral issue. More like a common sense/treat all people with respect and dignity issue.
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  #45  
Old 17 October 2007, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Dondi View Post
Morality taught in schools ought to be related the situational ethics that pertain to the school environment, i.e. racial and homosexual tolerance, elimination of harassment and bullying, prevention of violence in the schools, classroom behavior, and academic expectations and aspirations. You know, stuff that deals with school.
I quite disagree.

What about good citizenship and civic duty? What about the values of equality and democracy that our nation is founded on?

Those very values compel us to tolerate all viewpoints and values, even those which are hostile to the structure of our democracy itself. That does not mean that those views can or should be given equal weight or respect in public policy. Nor should we compromise our nation's core values in our public education system just because people have the right to disagree with them. Respect for the way that others choose to live their lives and pursue happiness, the things they choose to enjoy which do not infringe on the rights of others, is a direct, logical extension of the very fabric of our democracy.

Those same values, as I said, require that I defend the right of Fred Phelps or Pat Robertson to spew their hatred, or of NAMBLA to discuss their predilection on a theoretical level. They also require that these views, which are antithetical to a free and responsible society of grown-ups, be actively opposed in public policy.

The fact that all voices have a right to speak does not mean that our government should be value neutral. I think we all agree that the government should not be providing a complete moral script for children, and I certainly agree that a line should be drawn. But there's no reason for our government to retreat on our core values of humanity, respect, and equality, and homophobia violates those core values.

I'll come right out and say it. Homophobia is unAmerican. A (US) American has, and always should have, the right to hold and express unAmerican values. But those values have no place in public education.
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  #46  
Old 17 October 2007, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Dondi View Post
The problem with morality being taught in schools is that everyone has a different idea of what morality entails, as evident in many of the posts in this thread. Perhaps I ought to reinterate.

Morality taught in schools ought to be related the situational ethics that pertain to the school environment, i.e. racial and homosexual tolerance, elimination of harassment and bullying, prevention of violence in the schools, classroom behavior, and academic expectations and aspirations. You know, stuff that deals with school.

But I think a line is crossed if we are forcing our children to believe that homosexual behavior is ok. Or that if the OP has a legitimate point, that certain language traditionally used in the description of parents (i.e. "Mom" or "Dad") can no longer be used for it hurts the sensibilities of those not in a traditional family. (I don't believe the new bill says or implies that, but just supposing it did).
Since the outlawing of "Mom" and "Dad" is not a part of the bill, why not stop discussing it?

Now, as to your discomfort about children being "forced" to believe that homosexual behavior is okay, I think you might not understand the concept of tolerance. Tolerance has to do with witholding judgements about the rightness/wrongness of something. For the life of me I cannot imagine any school setting in which the okayness of *any* sexual behavior would be discussed.

Quote:
Your idea of a traditional family may differ from mine. You might think a traditional family now involves two lesbian parents or two gay parents. Thats fine, but don't make that an issue in the public school. That's the kind of morality that I'm talking about that should be taught at home.
I don't give a shit about "traditional" families. I do think it is time to recognized that there is no one definition of "family," and that my family is every bit as much a family as yours.

Quote:
We need to stick to what's common. To the morality in it's proper place that we can all agree upon.
Such as "family?" What is common, do you think?

Quote:
Am I being a bigot because I think homosexuality is wrong? Or am I just adhering to my convictions? Should I change my convictions just to be "politically correct"?
You are welcome to be a bigot if you want. I would encourage you to explore why you have a problem with homosexuality, starting with the question "What business is it of mine?" Of course, you don't have to; it was just a suggestion.

Quote:
The homosexual issue is different than the racial issue because homosexuality is based on a certain social behavior, not a genetic inheritance. It is the acceptance of the behavior, not the people themselves that I have problems with.
One can be homosexual without ever having sex. Again, something I suggest you think about.
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  #47  
Old 17 October 2007, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dondi View Post
Your idea of a traditional family may differ from mine. You might think a traditional family now involves two lesbian parents or two gay parents. Thats fine, but don't make that an issue in the public school. That's the kind of morality that I'm talking about that should be taught at home.
By that standard, no families should be discussed. Why should your version of the family be brought up in school, but not mine?

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We need to stick to what's common.
Why?

Quote:
Am I being a bigot because I think homosexuality is wrong? Or am I just adhering to my convictions?
The two are not exclusive.

Quote:
Should I change my convictions just to be "politically correct"?
Not. This. Again.

Quote:
The homosexual issue is different than the racial issue because homosexuality is based on a certain social behavior, not a genetic inheritance.
I'll echo everyone else's request for a cite. Because this just seems wrong.

Quote:
It is the acceptance of the behavior, not the people themselves that I have problems with.
Do you think of straight people's sexual habits before forming opinions of them?

Then why are you doing so with gay people?
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  #48  
Old 17 October 2007, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dondi View Post
We need to stick to what's common. To the morality in it's proper place that we can all agree upon.
Unfortunately, there is no definition of what is moral and what is not. Morality is subjective - which is why it's important to teach tolerance of people who are different than you.

Quote:
Am I being a bigot because I think homosexuality is wrong? Or am I just adhering to my convictions?
Yes, and yes.

Why do you hold such convictions? How does it affect you, personally, if a random stranger is homosexual?
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  #49  
Old 17 October 2007, 06:07 PM
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[b]Dondi, do you really believe that a homosexual man who conceals and denies his homosexuality and marries an unsuspecting heterosexual woman would be making a superior moral choice compared to a homosexual man who forms a committed relationship with another man?
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  #50  
Old 17 October 2007, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dondi View Post
We need to stick to what's common. To the morality in it's proper place that we can all agree upon.
Judging from this thread and the mountain of national debate going on, your definition ain't the only "common" one out there. I hear that in some states, gays can even marry! Crazy! It's as if the legislature there recognized that they were people and so should have the full rights of citizens or something. They must be very immoral states. You probably shouldn't visit them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dondi View Post
Am I being a bigot because I think homosexuality is wrong? Or am I just adhering to my convictions? Should I change my convictions just to be "politically correct"?
Treating other people as human beings is not being "politically correct", it's being a "decent person."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dondi View Post
The homosexual issue is different than the racial issue because homosexuality is based on a certain social behavior, not a genetic inheritance. It is the acceptance of the behavior, not the people themselves that I have problems with.
If you don't "accept the behavior", you bloody well do have problems with the people themselves. I don't accept bigoted behavior, and thus have a problem with bigots. You cannot tell people they're evil on one hand and expect them to believe that you don't have any negative feelings towards them on the other. It creates cognitive dissonace, and it hurts.

And I swear, if you say being gay is a choice, I will want to know when you chose to be straight. Fair warning.

Last edited by Lancastrian; 17 October 2007 at 06:50 PM. Reason: Can't type well with raised dander
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  #51  
Old 17 October 2007, 06:48 PM
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If being gay is a choice, I want to know WTF people are thinking when they choose to significantly narrow their pool of potential partners and volunteer to be discriminated against to boot.
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  #52  
Old 17 October 2007, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chloe View Post
If being gay is a choice, I want to know WTF people are thinking when they choose to significantly narrow their pool of potential partners and volunteer to be discriminated against to boot.
Not to mention beaten and killed.
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  #53  
Old 17 October 2007, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonny T View Post
there is Heather Has Two Mommies.

I was more concerned with the second one to be honest.
I realize this is *so* three pages ago, but I know the answer to this one! The dad version of Heather Has Two Mommies is Daddy's Roommate. It does mention that Dad and his roommate sleep together, but that's it. A very Brady-like scene.

ETA: My "sleep together" link didn't work. It brings you to the Search Inside page - just search sleep from there if you want to see the page.
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  #54  
Old 17 October 2007, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chloe View Post
If being gay is a choice, I want to know WTF people are thinking when they choose to significantly narrow their pool of potential partners and volunteer to be discriminated against to boot.
Eh, the toaster ovens are better.
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  #55  
Old 17 October 2007, 07:09 PM
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Tarquin Farquart Tarquin Farquart is offline
 
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How do bisexual people fit into this "choice" thing? Are they half-choosing.
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  #56  
Old 17 October 2007, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Tarquin Farquart View Post
How do bisexual people fit into this "choice" thing? Are they half-choosing.
They're the worst of the worst!

People who can't make up their minds. Sheesh! Just wear the skirt and the jeans!
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  #57  
Old 17 October 2007, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Canuckistan View Post
They're the worst of the worst!

People who can't make up their minds. Sheesh! Just wear the skirt and the jeans!
I prefer both having my cake *and* eating it, TYMV.

Though I am straight. I guess.
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  #58  
Old 17 October 2007, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Canuckistan View Post
They're the worst of the worst!

People who can't make up their minds. Sheesh! Just wear the skirt and the jeans!
Is THAT what that trend was all about? I thought it was just bad fashion.
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  #59  
Old 17 October 2007, 07:18 PM
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Yow!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dondi View Post
The homosexual issue is different than the racial issue because homosexuality is based on a certain social behavior, not a genetic inheritance. It is the acceptance of the behavior, not the people themselves that I have problems with.
text added for character count
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  #60  
Old 17 October 2007, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Lancastrian View Post
Is THAT what that trend was all about? I thought it was just bad fashion.
Well, that and the disgusting, immoral sexual practices.

But mainly the fashion.
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