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  #41  
Old 08 April 2008, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by snopes View Post
Once when I went to a Bob's Big Boy -- I am not making this up -- the hostess was a young black woman bearing a name tag that identified her as 'Launderette.'

- snopes
Hmmm. When I worked food service years ago we had a whole mess of fake name tags -- several were obscene. They were in a bucket in the back and you just kinda reached in and pinned one to the polo shirt. I frequently went with the one that said 'Priscilla' -- it should also be noted that I am a man.

My suspicion is that 'Laundrette' was having similar fun with the label maker... of course people name their children stupid things all the time.


-Winged Monkey
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  #42  
Old 17 April 2008, 01:44 AM
Broken Sword Broken Sword is offline
 
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Originally Posted by RBCal View Post
Obama has lots of creepy, racist mud yet to be thrown. Mud doesn't have to be true to be thrown. His campaign has been naive to think otherwise.
What do you mean by they've been "naive" to think otherwise? How exactly could his campaign stop untrue mud from being thrown? Should Obama not oppose lies being said about him?
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  #43  
Old 17 April 2008, 01:51 AM
Broken Sword Broken Sword is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Chloe View Post
Because it was also about why Jackson won SC; he won there because it is a state with a large black population. There was no secret about that. Pundits had been discussing it for months without being accused of playing the "race card." We've all seen the exit polls. Yet Bill Clinton was accused of wedge politics and playing the race card by mentioning that Jackson had won there but not won overall in the long run. As if no one had noticed until then that Barack Obama was not only a person of color, but running as a person of color.
There was a huge difference though - Jesse Jackson won South Carolina in a close race, whereas Barack Obama won it by 30 points after winning Iowa and nearly winning New Hampshire. Barack Obama also got a competitive % of the White vote in South Carolina compared to his two rivals (it broke down something like 35-35-30), whereas Jesse Jackson got a diminishingly small % of South Carolina's White vote. The comparison was inaccurate - Bill Clinton wanted to use it to hurt Obama's appearance as a candidate, and using such an approach seems to target White voters.
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  #44  
Old 17 April 2008, 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Broken Sword View Post
The comparison was inaccurate - Bill Clinton wanted to use it to hurt Obama's appearance as a candidate, and using such an approach seems to target White voters.
This is an excellent example of begging the question.
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  #45  
Old 17 April 2008, 02:02 AM
Broken Sword Broken Sword is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Chloe View Post
This is an excellent example of begging the question.
That label only works if you somehow manage to ignore the first two sentences. "Begging the question" is when someone assumes the conclusion in their argument in order to prove the conclusion. The first two sentences were the argument - they don't assume the conclusion at all. The last sentence was the conclusion itself. You can't just pull out the last sentence and claim I'm making a "begging the question" fallacy based on the fact that you ignored the actual argument.
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  #46  
Old 17 April 2008, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Broken Sword View Post
That label only works if you somehow manage to ignore the first two sentences. "Begging the question" is when someone assumes the conclusion in their argument in order to prove the conclusion. The first two sentences were the argument - they don't assume the conclusion at all. The last sentence was the conclusion itself. You can't just pull out the last sentence and claim I'm making a "begging the question" fallacy based on the fact that you ignored the actual argument.
But your first two sentences do not prove your conclusion (and thank you for the definition, but I think we can assume I wouldn't have used the term "begging the question" if I hadn't known what it meant).
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  #47  
Old 17 April 2008, 02:22 PM
Dr. Dave Dr. Dave is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Chloe View Post
but I think we can assume I wouldn't have used the term "begging the question" if I hadn't known what it meant
Interestingly, that statement begs the question of whether or not you do in fact know what "begging the question" means.


As it turns out, I would assume that Chloe specifically knows the meaning and proper use of a semantic or rhetorical term that she uses.

As it also turs out, my comments have nothing to do with Barack Obama or his extended family.
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  #48  
Old 17 April 2008, 04:22 PM
Broken Sword Broken Sword is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Chloe View Post
But your first two sentences do not prove your conclusion (and thank you for the definition, but I think we can assume I wouldn't have used the term "begging the question" if I hadn't known what it meant).
The definition was for clarification, more for anyone else than for you. (I would PM if I were just speaking to you, and I expect you to do the same.) And you can argue about whether I proved my conclusion sufficiently or not, but you can't say I'm begging the question just because I stated my conclusion at the end.
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  #49  
Old 17 April 2008, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Broken Sword View Post
The definition was for clarification, more for anyone else than for you. (I would PM if I were just speaking to you, and I expect you to do the same.) And you can argue about whether I proved my conclusion sufficiently or not, but you can't say I'm begging the question just because I stated my conclusion at the end.
Indeed I can. In fact, I did. And as I believe I have indicated to you more than once, I am not interested in using PMs for political discussion. Do NOT PM me under those circumstances.
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  #50  
Old 17 April 2008, 09:13 PM
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Silas Sparkhammer Silas Sparkhammer is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Dr. Dave View Post
Interestingly, that statement begs the question of whether or not you do in fact know what "begging the question" means.
Grin! A lot of people (I used to be one!) thought the phrase could also mean a provocative statement which invites a response.

"I've never met anyone who likes anchovies on pizza."
"But that begs the question: how many people have you met?"

Silas (invites the question?)
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  #51  
Old 17 April 2008, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Silas Sparkhammer View Post
Grin! A lot of people (I used to be one!) thought the phrase could also mean a provocative statement which invites a response.

"I've never met anyone who likes anchovies on pizza."
"But that begs the question: how many people have you met?"

Silas (invites the question?)
I've always thought it a pity that there isn't a pithy phrase for that phenomenon, especially since "begging the question" seems to fit the bill so well.
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  #52  
Old 17 April 2008, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Chloe View Post
I've always thought it a pity that there isn't a pithy phrase for that phenomenon, especially since "begging the question" seems to fit the bill so well.
I think it's silly to say that "begging the question" doesn't also mean "inviting that the question be asked"; not only do a lot of people use it that way, to the point where it's often listed as an alternative meaning, but it's also the literal meaning of the phrase in modern English, to the point where you'd quite easily come up with that combination of words anyway if you wanted to say that a particular statement seemed to be begging you to ask a question.

The pedantic "actual" meaning relies on an obscure and fairly twisted archaic definition of "to beg". I mean, look at the explanation of the phrase in wikipedia:

Quote:
The Latin version, Petitio Principii (from peto, petere, petivi, petitus: attack, aim at, desire, beg, entreat, ask (for), reach towards, make for; principii: genitive of principium: beginning or principle), literally means "begging or taking for granted of the beginning or of a principle." That is, the premise (the principle, the beginning) depends on the truth of the very matter in question.
(eta) I mean, either that's a very bad explanation or the "real" meaning is pretty much a mistranslation of the Latin, I'd say. Can you think of another example of "to beg" meaning "to take for granted"? It's not listed in dictionaries I've just checked. And even if it does mean that, the thing you're taking for granted is the answer (in the premise), not the question.

Last edited by Richard W; 17 April 2008 at 09:42 PM.
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  #53  
Old 17 April 2008, 09:43 PM
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I can't say I disagree with any of that. In an ideal world, "begging the question" would mean exactly what is says and nothing else, and we'd use "assuming your conclusions" or something more mellifluous to refer to the logical fallacy.
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