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Old 30 January 2015, 02:01 AM
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Sneeze Measles outbreak: California family wants schools to ban kids without vaccine

Six-year-old Rhett Krawitt has already beaten the odds. He fought leukemia for the past four-and-a-half years and the disease is now in remission. Carl and Jodi are Rhett's parents.

"There were times we weren't sure he was going to pull through," Jodi said. "So it's been very much, what I call a roller coaster."

But now the Krawitts are worried about measles.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/measles-...thout-vaccine/
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  #2  
Old 30 January 2015, 02:06 AM
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I heard on the way in to work this afternoon there are a couple of cases now reported at the U of M. We'll see where this goes.
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Old 30 January 2015, 02:25 AM
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Quite frankly, I think that refusing to vaccinate your kid for reasons other than documented medical issues such as a compromised immune system should be illegal. Child safety seats are required by law in motor vehicles when transporting small children, why should vaccines, which offer protection not only to the vaccinated child but to other people as well be treated differently?
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Old 30 January 2015, 03:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
Quite frankly, I think that refusing to vaccinate your kid for reasons other than documented medical issues such as a compromised immune system should be illegal. Child safety seats are required by law in motor vehicles when transporting small children, why should vaccines, which offer protection not only to the vaccinated child but to other people as well be treated differently?
Ummmmmmmmmmm


Because.... Religion.
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  #5  
Old 30 January 2015, 03:37 AM
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Even if i accepted that as a valid excuse (which I don't), the majority of people who aren't vaccinating are doing so because of the persistent belief in the thoroughly debunked idea that vaccination causes autism, not because they belong to a religious sect that forbids vaccinations.
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Old 30 January 2015, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
Even if i accepted that as a valid excuse (which I don't), the majority of people who aren't vaccinating are doing so because of the persistent belief in the thoroughly debunked idea that vaccination causes autism, not because they belong to a religious sect that forbids vaccinations.
I'm on your side. It would be mind-boggling that this anti-vaccination mindset is at all a public health issue, except.. well, except the very existence of an urban legends debunking web site demonstrates that it pretty much has to be a thing. But idiotic beliefs should not sway public health and safety policy on any level.
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Old 30 January 2015, 12:33 PM
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A Turtle Named Mack A Turtle Named Mack is offline
 
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crocoduck and crius, I would be with you if your comments were limited to the measles vaccine (I know that is the context of your comments), as well as some others which are well-established as being very safe and effective for substantially dangerous diseases. There are vaccines which have a higher risk of disease or other complication from the vaccination itself. There are also vaccines for diseases which are for most people quite mild and inconsequential (these can be developed for a number of reasons, including that diseases which are no big deal for most can be a very big deal for some). Refusing to vaccinate one's kids for diseases where there is a substantial risk from doing so and minimal upside should not be criminalized. Some vaccines are slam-dunks for safety and value; others are in a gray area.
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Old 30 January 2015, 12:38 PM
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Which vaccines are those, Mack?

" . . . higher risk of disease or other complication from the vaccination itself" -- higher than what?

What cites can you provide for your claims about these vaccines? Are these vaccines required by law for school attendance?
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Old 30 January 2015, 01:43 PM
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higher than for some of the safest vaccines. 'Required for school attendance' was not the issue presented. C_H said it should be illegal to refuse giving vaccines, apparently any vaccines, to one's children, nothing about school requirements to it.

Here are some links about vaccines and risks, if you are interested. From what I have seen, the CDC info seems to downplay problems, but the other links seem to overstate them. There is a legitimate debate as to the extent of dangers and what events are properly attributable to vaccines and which are merely coincidences (this happens with all medications, of course - a person takes X, and sometime later he suffers incident Y - was there causation? Most medicines' inserts have comments about very rare conditions blamed on the medicine that seem to be more coincidences, not caused by the med, but get mentioned for CYA purposes). In the balance, one must also consider the overall effectiveness of the vaccine - many reduce the risk of the disease they are taken for, but do not eliminate it, and while some vaccines are near 100% effective, some are much less so. For instance, while Gardasil is very effective for the strains of HPV it is designed for, it misses more than half the strains, and those strains are becoming relatively more common. Similarly, in any given year, the flu vaccine is comprised of vaccines for several different strains which must be predicted as the most likely risks, but there are always other flu strains out and about - some years, the vaccine is pretty good, in other years (I have read that this season's is notably off the mark) the prediction is wrong and the flu vaccine gives less effective protection against the actual strains that actually go around.
http://www.cdc.gov/vachttp://www.vac...de-effects.htm
http://vaccinechoicecanada.com/
http://www.nvic.org/vaccines-and-dis...vaccine-risks/

There is also a webmd article that looked promising, but you have to go through it giving family information, and I did not want to spend the time giving various combinations of possible family situations.
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Old 30 January 2015, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A Turtle Named Mack View Post
'Required for school attendance' was not the issue presented. C_H said it should be illegal to refuse giving vaccines, apparently any vaccines, to one's children, nothing about school requirements to it.
Requirements for school attendance are the subject of the OP.

Maybe C_H meant that the authorities should, absent any school requirements, sift through every single child's medical record to determine whether they've received all available vaccines, but I really doubt it.

Quote:
Here are some links about vaccines and risks, if you are interested.
In doing the homework to support your claims? No, thank you.

ETA: What qualifies you to determine that the CDC understates risks? Or do you have a cite from a source that is qualified to determine that, like a doctor or someone qualified in a related scientific field?
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  #11  
Old 30 January 2015, 02:13 PM
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I could swear that when I was a child, non-vaccinated children could not attend public schools. Why are they allowed to now? Send them to a private school solely for unvaccinated children and let them make each other sick while leaving the rest of us alone.

Seaboe
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Old 30 January 2015, 02:16 PM
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I got a medical exemption from the smallpox vaccine and was able to attend public school. Non-medical exemptions may be a more recent phenomenon, I don't know.
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Old 30 January 2015, 02:18 PM
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School is the obvious place where we can exclude unvaccinated children but it is only a partial solution, sadly. As long as there are parents out there who think that the only child they can harm (although of course they don't look at it that way) is their own then children like those discussed in the OP are always going to be at risk. The selfishness of the anti-vaxxers is mindboggling.
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Old 30 January 2015, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A Turtle Named Mack View Post
404-Page Not Found

From the website: "An emerging body of evidence indicates that vaccines can damage a child’s developing brain and immune system, leading to neurodevelopmental disorders, learning disabilities, ADHD, asthma, anaphylactic food allergies, diabetes and autoimmune disorders. As well, vaccines have been linked to sudden, unexpected death in infancy and early childhood (SIDS)." No supporting links or documentation

404-Page Not Found
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Old 30 January 2015, 02:27 PM
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It's almost as if ATNM just cut and pasted links from the results of a Google search.
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  #16  
Old 30 January 2015, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
Even if i accepted that as a valid excuse (which I don't), the majority of people who aren't vaccinating are doing so because of the persistent belief in the thoroughly debunked idea that vaccination causes autism, not because they belong to a religious sect that forbids vaccinations.
It can be linked to quasi-religious belief system though, based on a nearly superstitious fear of all things western, and there are certainly spiritualistic ideas that often go hand and hand with the kind of Southern California anti-vaccers I'm familiar with. The belief that ancient eastern treatments are safer than modern western medicine can span the scale from simple holistic remedies to mystical ideas about crystals and the restorative powers of nature. People are getting their bodies and minds cleansed in various ways by various practitioners and will put any herb in their mouth they are told to, yet are convinced that every health and behavioral hiccup is caused by an ingredient some capitalist has hidden in their food, water, or medication.

I realize that there may be a little truth mixed in to some of these ideas, but the level it's taken to does make me feel sometimes like I'm a milk drinking, gluten munching, vaccinated non believer. And I do power yoga and believe in free range chickens.
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  #17  
Old 30 January 2015, 04:34 PM
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Those kind of people are around and have been around before, yes, but the current rise in non-vaccinated children is directly because of Andrew Wakefield.
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Old 30 January 2015, 05:14 PM
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I've made it pretty clear where I stand on this issue in the past, but what really upsets me in the case cited in the OP is that there are some people calling this little boy a Special Snowflake and saying that the father is a hypocrite since he wants everybody to get vaccinated except his own son. He had leukemia! And my guess is that he was already partially vaccinated before he got sick. There are many vaccines he can, and probably does, receive even during maintenance therapy. It was standard practice at Neill's clinic to give all the pediatric cancer patients flu shots every year. Neill was actually better vaccinated than his brother Ian because Ian was exempt from live virus vaccines during Neill's treatment. Ian was less than a year old when Neill was diagnosed, so Neill was up to date with his vaccines when he got sick, but Ian couldn't get any more.

As I've stated before, the irony is that the only reason anti-vaxers can get away with not vaccinating their children is because of herd immunity. These parents want all of the benefits conferred on society because of immunizations without taking any of the risks.
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Old 30 January 2015, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
Those kind of people are around and have been around before, yes, but the current rise in non-vaccinated children is directly because of Andrew Wakefield.
I agree with you, I just suspect that a mind set that fears western medicine is what helped turn a research paper into a movement.
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Old 30 January 2015, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HelloLlama View Post
I've made it pretty clear where I stand on this issue in the past, but what really upsets me in the case cited in the OP is that there are some people calling this little boy a Special Snowflake and saying that the father is a hypocrite since he wants everybody to get vaccinated except his own son.
Sounds like the same kind of people who have hissy fits when peanut butter is banned at their kid's school. Because, you know, clearly their child's right to unfettered access to peanut butter trumps another child's right to live.
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