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  #41  
Old 01 May 2013, 09:15 AM
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damian damian is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Little Pink Pill View Post
Side note, I found this:

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How much better would the world be if it was never written, and instead, we just learned to be excellent to each other?
and this:

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As everyone has a right to hold an opinion or belief, everyone has a right to mock those beliefs.
to be an amusing juxtaposition. If only we could learn to be more excellent to each other by mocking one another's beliefs.
It's not a juxtaposition. I said the world would be better if the bible had never been written. But since it has, we we are ok to mock each other's silly beliefs.
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  #42  
Old 01 May 2013, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
And here I always thought Comic Sans was the devil's font.
The word "Helvetica" has a very different origin, as I've explained earlier in this thread: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helvetia

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Originally Posted by damian View Post
So all those religious wars, the subjugation of women and other races, slavery and anti-gay laws would have existed? Many of the dickheads in the world use the bible to justify their actions. If they chose to follow the Wyld Stallyns instead, the world would be better.
Well, subjugation of women and other races have happened in many different cultures, and so has slavery. It has nothing to do with the Bible.

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Originally Posted by BlueStar View Post
How about Blair Witch Project? Or Mermaids: the Body Found?. How about The Elder Protocols of Zion, presented as as factual and believed as factual by some of its audience?
Some myths can eventually be proven as true or false, but many will be hard to confirm or dismiss.

Last edited by Furienna; 01 May 2013 at 10:20 AM.
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  #43  
Old 01 May 2013, 01:17 PM
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ganzfeld ganzfeld is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Little Pink Pill View Post
If only we could learn to be more excellent to each other by mocking one another's beliefs.
Exactly. Speaking for myself, the times I've mocked others don't stand out as highlights of my excellence to others.
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  #44  
Old 01 May 2013, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by damian View Post
So all those religious wars, the subjugation of women and other races, slavery and anti-gay laws would have existed?
Well, frankly, yes. All those things have happened under practically every religion and no religion. There isn't any evidence that they wouldn't. Even animals do those things. I'm pretty sure it's not their religion. (In fact, there's precious little evidence religion has been the cause of any war, much less all the ones called "religious wars".)

More importantly, there isn't any evidence that that particular book is to blame for the existence or persistence of religion. People don't seem to need any particular one.
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  #45  
Old 01 May 2013, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
More importantly, there isn't any evidence that that particular book is to blame for the existence or persistence of religion. People don't seem to need any particular one.
And if you substitute "mockery of other people's beliefs" for "existence or persistence of religion," the sentence is equally true. When we're not excellent to each other, it's nobody's fault but our own.
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  #46  
Old 01 May 2013, 03:15 PM
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Little Pink Pill Little Pink Pill is offline
 
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
Exactly. Speaking for myself, the times I've mocked others don't stand out as highlights of my excellence to others.
Neither do mine. But I have found that occasionally mocking myself can be quite cathartic.
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  #47  
Old 01 May 2013, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by damian View Post
I didn't say that all religious people are nutjobs. But we all know of a few that are. And we know that (most of) the bible isn't real. Why do people perpetuate that which they know not to be real?
Most isn't real? That would be hard to prove. The Bible has content which is history, parable, poetry, laws, etc. Some that, if looked at properly, we KNOW didn't happen, but is a bad result of interpretation. I don't believe every little thing has to be interpreted, but simply looked at in context.

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(g)You have the right to be offended if you like. But the rest of us don't have to respect your beliefs if we find them silly. The Westboro Baptist Church, the Ku Klux Klan and al Qaeda all believe in a version of God. We have a duty to take the piss out of these groups, as we should with any person that would use his beliefs to control the rest of us.
I agree 100%. A Christian who believes in the Bible SHOULN'T be trying to impose laws, but to change hearts and minds.

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Wasn't Revelation exactly that?
No, some guy exiled to an island. Also, you write what you know. some of the concepts John recieved were way beyond his literal understanding. I doubt anyone is sure what all that means yet, but people have tried to bring it into a modern concept. I think we won't ever know. Revelation does tell the story of an end, and judgement. Fascinating reading.

Quote:
As everyone has a right to hold an opinion or belief, everyone has a right to mock those beliefs.
PERSECUTION! PERSECUTION! Sorry, that ain't new. It's in the Bible too!
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  #48  
Old 01 May 2013, 05:22 PM
Tom o' Bedlam Tom o' Bedlam is offline
 
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Originally Posted by damian View Post
Even when those beliefs are patently silly?
Yes.

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It tells a story that the writers want you to hear.
Have you ever heard a story that the writers didn't want you to hear?

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Wasn't Revelation exactly that?
Even if it were, that's just one part out of many.

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You don't think an adult that believed Star Wars was true would be mocked?
The Star Wars comparison was more a direct response your first post on this thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by damian View Post
Does it matter when a made-up place is included in a fiction book?
Of course it matters. Even if everyone in the world considered it a work of pure fiction, it would still matter, in the same way that it matters when the circumstances of a made-up altercation was changed in a fictional movie. It also matters because it tells us something about the people who wrote and believed in it at the time, just as the Star Wars revision tells us something about how the movie industry (and possibly even society as a whole) had changed between the movie's original release and its re-release.

In short, I find the attitude that the details and history of the Bible "don't matter" to be not only socially disrespectful, but historically, anthropologically, and literarily irresponsible.

Quote:
As everyone has a right to hold an opinion or belief, everyone has a right to mock those beliefs.
Yes, but that make one any less of a jerk for doing so.

Last edited by Tom o' Bedlam; 01 May 2013 at 05:47 PM.
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  #49  
Old 01 May 2013, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by damian View Post
So all those religious wars, the subjugation of women and other races, slavery and anti-gay laws would have existed? Many of the dickheads in the world use the bible to justify their actions.
And if the Bible didn't exist, they'd use (or create) some other authority to justify their actions. Justification is an after-the-fact rationalization for people's actions, not the cause of those actions.
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  #50  
Old 01 May 2013, 05:51 PM
Tom o' Bedlam Tom o' Bedlam is offline
 
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Originally Posted by snopes View Post
And if the Bible didn't exist, they'd use (or create) some other authority to justify their actions. Justification is an after-the-fact rationalization for people's actions, not the cause of those actions.
Exactly. If modern politics teaches us anything, it's that people will always come up with some justification for whatever particular injustice they want to commit.
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  #51  
Old 01 May 2013, 07:56 PM
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I'm not an expert on ancient religions, nor do I claim to be one, but the concept of an "immortal soul", and both "good" and "bad" afterlives were also not limited to Christianity, and I do recall reading that there is speculation that early Christians "borrowed" some of these traits from other religions. And this wasn't, IIRC, uncommon.

I think that it is also important to note that in its early days, Christianity had no monopoly on what we would call prejudicial attitudes (with respect to race, gender, sexuality, and so on) but it happened to become the dominant religion over a large area, in a fairly short time. I think it would be more useful to consider what the world would be like if this had not happened and some other "ancient" religion - one from that time or even earlier - had become the dominant (or at least heavily influential) religion through the next 2000 years. What if Christians had become a minor sect, or were even wiped out completely in purges? Would we be praising Zeus or Jupiter? Would there have been a revival of something else? That is, perhaps, more useful.
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  #52  
Old 01 May 2013, 08:06 PM
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If there had been no Christianity, I would assume the Islam would be the dominant religion as there wouldn't have been as unified a group that would have opposed Islamic conquests.
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  #53  
Old 01 May 2013, 08:21 PM
Tom o' Bedlam Tom o' Bedlam is offline
 
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I would say it's pretty certain that early Christians (and the Jews that preceded them) borrowed from other religions. As has been mentioned in this thread, the concept of Hell seems to have come from the Greco-Roman idea of the underworld, probably without their even thinking about it - the idea may have been so prevalent at the time that it was just taken for granted that when you die, you go to a some unpleasant (if not actually torturous) place beneath the earth..

I think the idea that anyone can be "saved", and end up going somewhere nicer, was probably pretty revolutionary for the time and place. The Greeks had their Elysian Fields, but they were closed to all but their greatest of heroes, and I don't know of any other contemporary religion in the West that rewarded you in death for good behavior.

ETA:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
If there had been no Christianity, I would assume the Islam would be the dominant religion as there wouldn't have been as unified a group that would have opposed Islamic conquests.
But didn't Islam at least partially spring from Christianity? In any case, I doubt that it would be Islam exactly as we know it.
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  #54  
Old 01 May 2013, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Little Pink Pill View Post
Neither do mine. But I have found that occasionally mocking myself can be quite cathartic.
I not going to lie; sometimes mocking others can be cathartic, too. I don't think there's anything wrong with mocking people for things they do. But mocking them for what (supposedly) goes on in their heads seems not only mean but ignorant.
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  #55  
Old 01 May 2013, 09:01 PM
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In reference to the OP, although "hell" isn't mentioned in the Bible, neither are "cats". Who knows why?

The concept for one is hypothetical, the other is reality. Or is it? Even ancient scholars had no clue.
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  #56  
Old 02 May 2013, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom o' Bedlam View Post
Quote:
As everyone has a right to hold an opinion or belief, everyone has a right to mock those beliefs.
Yes, but that make one any less of a jerk for doing so.
Does this make believes of the Bible jerks when they say a book which calls atheists 'fools' is, quite literally, gospel?
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  #57  
Old 02 May 2013, 05:57 AM
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ganzfeld ganzfeld is offline
 
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Originally Posted by BlueStar View Post
Does this make believes of the Bible jerks when they say a book which calls atheists 'fools' is, quite literally, gospel?
Maybe this should go in the things you shouldn't have to tell people thread: 1) Two wrongs don't make a right and 2) All people of some class (believers) shouldn't necessarily be blamed for the actions or words of some.
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  #58  
Old 02 May 2013, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by hambubba View Post
In reference to the OP, although "hell" isn't mentioned in the Bible, neither are "cats". Who knows why?
Redundancy.
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  #59  
Old 02 May 2013, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
Maybe this should go in the things you shouldn't have to tell people thread: 1) Two wrongs don't make a right and 2) All people of some class (believers) shouldn't necessarily be blamed for the actions or words of some.
I'm not talking about actions or words though - I'm pointing out that simply beliving the Bible is the true word of God means considering a book that insults the intelligence of unbelievers as fact. But while saying "I agree with everything Dawkins says in the God Delusion" would possibly be seen as being a jerk, saying you believe in the Bible generally isn't - even though that goes beyond agreement with a position and into the realm of divine and undeniable truth.

Last edited by BlueStar; 02 May 2013 at 06:38 AM.
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  #60  
Old 02 May 2013, 06:39 AM
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Mr. Billion Mr. Billion is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Furienna View Post
Actually, yes. The book of Job describes the Devil as a prosecutor, who wants God to let him punish people.
What I've heard is a little different. It's not that The Devil is a prosecutor working for God. There is no "The Devil." Instead the whole notion of "The Devil" as an anti-God figure hadn't yet been invented in ancient Hebrew thought during the writing of the Hebrew bible. There was occasionally a prosecutorial figure, but it wasn't necessarily the same one and it was an antagonistic but not evil figure.

I listened to this analysis of the book of Job two years ago and it's stuck with me ever since:

Quote:
So the moral virtue and innocence of Job is established in the opening line as a narrative fact, a non-negotiable narrative fact. And yet this Job is to become the victim of a challenge issued by "the satan" in the heavenly counsel. I say "the satan" deliberately. The satan. The satan is certainly not the devil. There's no such notion in the Hebrew Bible. The phrase, "the satan," occurs four times in the Hebrew Bible, here and in Numbers 22 and in Zechariah 3.

"The satan" is simply a member of the divine counsel — one of God's minions whose function it is to investigate affairs on earth and to act as a kind of prosecuting attorney. He has to bring evildoers to justice. And it's only in later Jewish, and especially Christian thought, that the term loses the definite article — from "the satan" which means "the prosecutor" essentially, the prosecuting attorney — and becomes a proper name, Satan, for an enemy or opponent of God.

This later concept of Satan develops as a means of explaining evil without attributing it to God, but that isn't the function of the satan here. He works for God and when Yahweh boasts of his pious servant Job, the prosecuting angel wonders, as his portfolio requires him to do, whether Job's piety is sincere
http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studie...145/lecture-20

Last edited by Mr. Billion; 02 May 2013 at 06:55 AM.
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