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Old 18 July 2015, 11:51 AM
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Royalty Queen Nazi salute film: Palace 'disappointed' at use

Buckingham Palace has said it is disappointed that footage from 1933 showing the Queen performing a Nazi salute has been released.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33578174

Here is the original report with a link to the original film.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...eilnesses.html
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Old 18 July 2015, 11:54 AM
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The only thing I can really say in mitigation is that no-one knew in 1933 what the Nazi philosophy would develop into.
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Old 18 July 2015, 12:08 PM
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The only thing I can really say in mitigation is that no-one knew in 1933 what the Nazi philosophy would develop into.
My history teacher, an ex-RAF bomber pilot, said that during the 20's and 30's, the memory of World War 1 was so horrid and recent that society seemed to be scared of going to war again. But unfortunatly he said that was proved wrong.

I also wonder if anyone took Hitler seriously in the early years.
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Old 18 July 2015, 12:20 PM
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Mein Kampf was published in 1925 - 1926, and although I've not read it, it does seem to be pretty clear about Hitler's philosophies. So I don't think it's true to say that nobody knew what Nazism was about in those days.

Of course, Nazi sympathisers always claimed that the plan was to ship the Jews to Madagascar, and it was only because of the war itself that they decided to kill them all instead, but unless you think the only bad thing about Nazism was the genocide, then it surely was possible to know about the rest of it by this time...
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Old 18 July 2015, 12:40 PM
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Mein Kampf was published in 1925 - 1926, and although I've not read it, it does seem to be pretty clear about Hitler's philosophies. So I don't think it's true to say that nobody knew what Nazism was about in those days.
There also shouldn't have been any ambiguity about the meaning of the Nazi salute in 1933. It had been used within the Nazi party since 1923 and they made it the compulsory greeting to the Fuhrer in 1926. According to Wikipedia:
Quote:
In June 1928, Rudolf Hess published an article titled "The Fascist Greeting", which claimed that the gesture was used in Germany as early as 1921, before the Nazis had heard about the Italian Fascists.
On the other hand you can't really condemn anyone for messing about and doing the salute as a private joke before WW2.
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Old 18 July 2015, 12:46 PM
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The man in the film is the future Edward VIII, who was already widely thought to have had Nazi sympathies, though. I don't think anybody's condemning the Queen (since she's only about six) but it's certainly interesting context.

The question for the Sun is where they got it (since it's apparently from a private collection), not whether they were justified in publishing it, to me. News International doesn't have the best record on protecting their sources these days...
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Old 18 July 2015, 01:12 PM
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Mein Kampf was published in 1925 - 1926, and although I've not read it, it does seem to be pretty clear about Hitler's philosophies. So I don't think it's true to say that nobody knew what Nazism was about in those days.
What I was meaning, is that no-one knew that the Nazis would develop into the death camps that would result in the deaths of millions of people (mostly Jews, but other groups as well). Indeed even at the start of the war people were doing the Nazi salute as a means of making fun of Hitler. I have seen a film of people doing a dance to one of the comic songs about Hitler. Hitler was still a figure of fun - and it was only in 1944 that stories of the death camps began to emerge and only in 1945 when the real horrors were revealed.
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Old 18 July 2015, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Gutter Monkey View Post
There also shouldn't have been any ambiguity about the meaning of the Nazi salute in 1933. It had been used within the Nazi party since 1923 and they made it the compulsory greeting to the Fuhrer in 1926. According to Wikipedia:
In the US it was called the Bellamy Salute and used until 1942 during the Pledge of Allegiance. http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/uscong...alutersquo.htm
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Old 18 July 2015, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew of Ware View Post
What I was meaning, is that no-one knew that the Nazis would develop into the death camps that would result in the deaths of millions of people (mostly Jews, but other groups as well). Indeed even at the start of the war people were doing the Nazi salute as a means of making fun of Hitler.
The "making fun of Hitler" version usually includes the other finger as a moustache. It's true that outrage-mongers sometimes deliberately can't tell the difference and pretend, when people do that version, that it's an actual Nazi salute. (Possibly some neo-Nazis really think the finger moustache is part of it, too).

Also, Nazi sympathisers presumably didn't encourage Nazi salutes to make fun of Hitler... did they?
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Old 18 July 2015, 03:22 PM
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The man in the film is the future Edward VIII, who was already widely thought to have had Nazi sympathies, though. I don't think anybody's condemning the Queen (since she's only about six) but it's certainly interesting context.
I'm not inclined to think very critically of her mother over this thing, either. There's one person in those images who is known to have been a Nazi sympathizer. It seems likely to me he was the impetus for the gestures. It's an ugly image seen from our perspective, but it says nothing about the characters of 3 out of the 4 people in them, IMO.
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Old 18 July 2015, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by firefighter_raven View Post
In the US it was called the Bellamy Salute and used until 1942 during the Pledge of Allegiance. http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/uscong...alutersquo.htm
I only found that out recently, and from a mystery novel at that, not from any kind of history book or documentary. I can't even remember seeing this used in any old movies. It definitely took me by surprise as it has become so associated, of course, with Nazism. Funny that so many out there seem determined to reclaim the swastika (or at least launch impassioned defenses of it when it is seemingly used innocently) but I don't recall ever hearing of anyone trying to reclaim the Bellamy salute.
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Old 18 July 2015, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard W View Post
Mein Kampf was published in 1925 - 1926, and although I've not read it, it does seem to be pretty clear about Hitler's philosophies. So I don't think it's true to say that nobody knew what Nazism was about in those days.
Antisemitism and other forms of racism were pretty common in those days too. The white superiority, antisemitism and such that Hitler advocated in Mein Kampf were not much different than what many other world leaders were saying at the time.
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Old 18 July 2015, 10:04 PM
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World leaders may have been anti-semitic at the time, but I'm not sure how many would have agreed with something like:
Quote:
At the
beginning of the War, or even during the War, if twelve or fifteen
thousand of these Jews who were corrupting the nation had been forced to
submit to poison-gas, just as hundreds of thousands of our best German
workers from every social stratum and from every trade and calling had
to face it in the field, then the millions of sacrifices made at the
front would not have been in vain. On the contrary: If twelve thousand
of these malefactors had been eliminated in proper time probably the
lives of a million decent men, who would be of value to Germany in the
future, might have been saved.
http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200601.txt
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Old 19 July 2015, 01:13 AM
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Oh for NFBSK's sake, she was seven years old! The only reason this is news is because she became Elizabeth II, as opposed to a shopkeeper or something. What's next? Gonna dig up some footage of her swiping a cupcake from her classmates when their backs were turned?

I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised that a British tabloid would go nuts for this, but I remain baffled as to why American news sites would care. It's weird how us Americans are almost as obsessed with British royalty as the Brits are. I thought part of the reason we fought the Revolutionary War was so we wouldn't have to care about British royalty.
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  #15  
Old 19 July 2015, 01:20 AM
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Oh for NFBSK's sake, she was seven years old! The only reason this is news is because she became Elizabeth II, as opposed to a shopkeeper or something.
It's got nothing to do with Elizabeth herself, as such. But of course it's a story because they're the British Royal Family, rather than some random people... And it's not interesting simply for prurient reasons. I get that Americans might not care, but it was reported in the UK press, and evidence of casual Nazi sympathies among our "rulers" has genuine historic significance.
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Old 19 July 2015, 01:29 AM
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And some of us Americans are interested in that historical significance.
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Old 19 July 2015, 03:00 AM
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I wonder why they didn't destroy that film years ago. I mean sure some families have very little in the way of family memorabilia so they might hesitate to destroy what might be the only film they have of some family members but that's certainly not true in this case.
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Old 19 July 2015, 04:41 AM
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I thought part of the reason we fought the Revolutionary War was so we wouldn't have to care about British royalty.
I thought it was so we wouldn't have to submit to them.

Count me as another who finds it relevant, not because I judge a 7 year old girl mimicking her parents, but because understanding how entangled antisemitism was in European culture sheds light not only on the events of WWII and the politics of genocide, but on why the remnants of antisemitism linger there today.

We feel like it was so very long ago, but seeing footage of a respected, living public figure raising her hand in a Nazi salute eats up a bit of the comfortable distance.
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Old 19 July 2015, 06:19 AM
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Yet it may seem that any kind of salute she did 80 years ago pales in comparison to the fact that she is a living example of someone who is still, to this day, the integral member of a continuous, archaic form of hereditary imperial governance.
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  #20  
Old 19 July 2015, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Sue View Post
I wonder why they didn't destroy that film years ago.
They might well have destroyed other, similar material:

Royals told: open archives on family ties to Nazi regime (The Guardian, 18th July 2015)

Quote:
Urbach, author of Go-Betweens for Hitler, a new book about the relationship between the royals and the Nazis, has spent years trying to gain access to documents relating to Nazi Germany held in the royal archives. She described the archives, in Windsor Castle’s Round Tower, as “a beautiful place to work but not if you want to work on 20th-century material … you don’t get any access to anything political after 1918”.

She described seeing shelves of boxes containing material relating to the 1930s that no one is allowed to research. She suggested that much of the archives’ interwar material no longer existed.

“We know that after ’45 there was a big cleanup operation,” Urbach said. “The royals were very worried about correspondence resurfacing and so it was destroyed.”
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