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  #21  
Old 22 March 2018, 12:32 AM
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Richard W Richard W is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Jusenkyo no Pikachu View Post
For context: the video is the one aired episode of Heil, Honey, I’m Home!, a British TV series that parodied 1950s dom coms by having Adolf Hitler and Eva Braun living next door to a Jewish couple.
Nitpick: It wasn't a series, and was never intended as one. It was a one-off broadcast as part of a set of one-offs... And as you say, if you watch it, it's clear that it's parodying the sit-com structure (in the manner of Viz comic, perhaps) rather than ever taking itself seriously as an actual idea for a series. It's parodying quite a lot of tropes, in fact. It's from the days back in the early 1990s when it seemed that everybody knew what was actually meant by "ironic sexism" and so on - a brief period when it seemed we could take it for granted that we were all on the same side on these things, and that therefore taking the piss out of these tropes wasn't going to be misinterpreted by anybody taking it literally.

It's not particularly funny - at least, as far as I remember from when I watched it a few years ago - but it was never even intended to be a series.
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  #22  
Old 22 March 2018, 12:35 AM
RichardM RichardM is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Darth Credence View Post
Would it be funny if he trained the dog to do it when playing "Hail to the Chief" or saying President Trump? Would it be funny if he trained it to do so at a mention of Obama?
trump yes as he has stated there might be some good people in the American Nazi party. Obama, no as he is the opposite of that sentiment.

ETA: In other words, you can mock trump for his Nazi sentiments. You need to find something other than a Nazi salute to mock Obama.
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  #23  
Old 22 March 2018, 02:52 AM
Jusenkyo no Pikachu Jusenkyo no Pikachu is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Richard W View Post
It's not particularly funny - at least, as far as I remember from when I watched it a few years ago - but it was never even intended to be a series.
Actually, Wikipedia states that 8 episodes were commissioned.
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  #24  
Old 22 March 2018, 05:58 PM
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Richard W Richard W is offline
 
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Ah, OK. I'd been under the impression that it was a one-off and the others in the "series" would have been differently themed. It's hard to see how they'd have kept it going for eight episodes - there was basically only one joke and it had worn off quite thoroughly by the end of the one they showed, as far as I remember.
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  #25  
Old 23 March 2018, 04:26 AM
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Originally Posted by RichardM View Post
trump yes as he has stated there might be some good people in the American Nazi party. Obama, no as he is the opposite of that sentiment.

ETA: In other words, you can mock trump for his Nazi sentiments. You need to find something other than a Nazi salute to mock Obama.
Plenty of conservatives compared Obama to Hitler during his presidency. It's the exact same joke. The only difference is which side of the political spectrum is going to find it funny.

FTR, I find joking about Nazis scary, not funny, at this point.
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  #26  
Old 23 March 2018, 08:40 AM
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ganzfeld ganzfeld is offline
 
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Woah. I finally read the actual story of the OP and saw a clip of the video. Usually in these cases, it turns out that the person in the headline was, in fact, not convicted for what was in the headline. But this conversation had gone on this far without anyone saying what was the actual alleged crime. So I thought, well, it may be true that he was convicted for a dog trick. Actually, he said very specific and, in my opinion, extremely offensive things (ie alleged hate speech) in that video and trained the dog to respond to those (implying that he said them over and over and over...).

I have no comment on the law one way or the other but the headline grossly misrepresents what happened. (As I said, that's usually the case with this type of "OMG he got arrested for What?" headlines but I do wish someone had mentioned that earlier.) That stupid sitcom is no relation at all. Not even sure why it's been gratuitously added to the conversation. wth

Last edited by ganzfeld; 23 March 2018 at 08:45 AM.
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  #27  
Old 23 March 2018, 11:21 AM
Jusenkyo no Pikachu Jusenkyo no Pikachu is offline
 
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
Woah. I finally read the actual story of the OP and saw a clip of the video. Usually in these cases, it turns out that the person in the headline was, in fact, not convicted for what was in the headline. But this conversation had gone on this far without anyone saying what was the actual alleged crime. So I thought, well, it may be true that he was convicted for a dog trick. Actually, he said very specific and, in my opinion, extremely offensive things (ie alleged hate speech) in that video and trained the dog to respond to those (implying that he said them over and over and over...).
Honestly, I get more and more on the fence with this one. On the one hand, it’s entirely possible he likes crassly offensive comedy. On the other, he’s now been pictured with Carl Benjamin and Paul Joseph Watson, who are bellends through and through.

Quote:
That stupid sitcom is no relation at all. Not even sure why it's been gratuitously added to the conversation. wth
It was an example of something that also skates on very thin ice. A lot of people back then saw it as trivialising something they still hadn’t healed over (remember, Dad’s Army and Hogan’s Heroes never actually dealt with the war outside their one small part), so to see the Führer as a buffoonish Ralph Kramden type was anathema.
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  #28  
Old 23 March 2018, 01:47 PM
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Without going into whether the law itself is proper or not, I think the real issue here is not that he taught the dog the salute - which may or may not be funny, given the circumstances - but that he said a very offensive thing in the video.
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  #29  
Old 23 March 2018, 02:23 PM
St. Alia St. Alia is offline
 
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This guy went on Alex Jones?

And he trained this dog to respond to horrific Nazi phrases specifically to piss his girlfriend off.

My interest in other countries laws on freedom of speech just went down to zero, at least in this instance.

This is a WP article, so you may be hitting a pay wall, but I'll quote a few things to support what I stated above.

Quote:
“I feel in the long run I didn’t do anything wrong,” he said on Jones’s show. “It was clearly satire. It was clearly a joke. I wasn’t setting out to cause any offense to any people. If anything I was wanting people to laugh, and just obviously, it was taken the wrong way.”
There is a link to Alex Jones' show with this guy in the article (I assume, I won't click that BS).

Quote:
But he’d already defended his actions in a succinct statement on his pug-centered video: “I’m not racist, by the way. I just really, really wanted to [tick my girlfriend] off.”
What a lovely lad.
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  #30  
Old 23 March 2018, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by St. Alia View Post
My interest in other countries laws on freedom of speech just went down to zero, at least in this instance.
I get that we all have different interests, but I have the opposite reaction.

My interest in whether he's a decent person compared to him being found guilty of saying something grossly offensive, based on a law that as far as I can tell shouldn't even apply here. Not that I'm an expert on British law, but then the people who wrote the law and the judges who interpret the law have previously disagreed over when the law should apply, so apparently I'm not the only one confused by it. Half a year in jail seems more important to me than the fact that he went on some jackass's talk show.
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  #31  
Old 23 March 2018, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth Credence View Post
Plenty of conservatives . It's the exact same joke. The only difference is which side of the political spectrum is going to find it funny.

FTR, I find joking about Nazis scary, not funny, at this point.
Yes, some conservatives compared Obama to Hitler but Obama never said there were good people in a Nazi demonstration.
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  #32  
Old 23 March 2018, 04:58 PM
Jusenkyo no Pikachu Jusenkyo no Pikachu is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
some jackass's talk show.
You know, I’m pretty sure that calling The Alex Jones Show that would qualify for “understatement of the year”. Jones is a terrifyingly influential jackass.
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  #33  
Old 23 March 2018, 05:06 PM
Jusenkyo no Pikachu Jusenkyo no Pikachu is offline
 
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Originally Posted by RichardM View Post
Yes, some conservatives compared Obama to Hitler but Obama never said there were good people in a Nazi demonstration.
Obama was also nothing like Hitler. Those people just think anything they don’t like is fascist.

Trump, on the other hand, is someone I once called “Chickenshitler”.
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  #34  
Old 23 March 2018, 06:05 PM
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Gutter Monkey Gutter Monkey is offline
 
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For what it's worth I don't think he actually taught the dog to do the Nazi salute when it heard the command "Heil Hitler", it looks like he noticed that the dog reaches out with its paw when he teased it with food or some similar stimulus and he just yelled "Heil Hitler" at the same time for the video. (There's a bunch of videos online that teach you how to make a dog wave and most of them look much more like a Nazi salute that what the pug managed.)

He did teach it to react to the phrase "Gas the Jews", though. It looks like the dog was just reacting to his tone of voice at the start (most dogs will react with excitement to any random words if you say it in the same tone of voice you might say "Do you want to go for a walk?") and after many, many repetitions it started recognising the words.

The video also featured video and photos of Hitler and some swastika graphics, dunno how much that may have contributed to the court's finding. He never says anything positive about or supportive of the Nazis or their beliefs in the video, he clarifies at the start that he's sick of his girlfriend talking about how cute and adorable her dog is and he decided to turn it into the "least cute thing that I could think of, which is a Nazi."


ETA: if he'd prefaced the video with a statement saying something like "I don't support the Nazis and I condemn everything they stood for but I think this will be a funny dumb prank" and changed nothing else about the video I think he would have been fine.
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  #35  
Old 23 March 2018, 06:40 PM
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erwins erwins is offline
 
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I don't know. I don't support punishing people for speech alone in most instances. But here (and I have no idea if this came into it in the actual case) it isn't speech alone. He took actions as well. Teaching someone else's dog to react to horrific and offensive references is not just speech. I don't much like the "pets as property" legal model, but here, it seems apt enough to describe it as damaging his girlfriend's property. A bit like painting a swastika on it.

A swastika may be expression, but that doesn't make it OK to paint it on someone's house. I would be extremely upset if someone taught my dog those things, and I think there should be consequences. (Not necessarily criminal ones).
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  #36  
Old 23 March 2018, 11:18 PM
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Richard W Richard W is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
That is very often not at all what people mean when they say something was just a joke. What they very often mean is that their comments were meant to be read in exactly the way of the literal meaning, but that everyone is supposed to find the literal meaning funny: because attacking whoever is being attacked is supposed to be thought of as funny.
Yes, and this isn't incompatible with what I said, about people very often meaning the opposite of what they said. Since people very often do all sorts of things, they can very often do both, or either of those things. This particular video doesn't seem to me to have been intended to be shared widely or intended to cause hatred or violence to any particular group or individual. It seems to me to fit what I was talking about more closely than it fits the different situation that you were talking about.

From further things I've read, he doesn't seem a particularly decent bloke in other senses either, but a criminal conviction for this isn't something I would feel comfortable defending, either. (He doesn't seem to have been sentenced yet, so the "six months" Steve mentioned is hypothetical at this stage...)
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  #37  
Old 24 March 2018, 12:07 AM
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Hans Off Hans Off is offline
 
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I’m really torn on this, I have been convinced in some measure by both sides of the argument as to weather the conviction was desrerved or not. Namely Graham Linneman’s battle on Twitter and the magnificent Jonathan Pie rant from this week.

For the Pie take on it, If accurate, the dismissal of the clause of “Context” by the judge is incredibly worrying.

As with many things these days, there is nuance and multiple issues going on here. The principal of free Speech is one tennant I absolutley agree with, but the offence of “Inciting racial hatred” is absolutley relevant too.

“Causing offence” isn‘t and should not be an offence in itself.

The Pie peice is worth watching for that certain point of view, I recommending watching it but be warned, the language is very strong.

For context, Jonathan Pie is a satirical character created by the actor Tom Walker and co written with Andrew Doyle.

Normally published in weekly rants, he first shot to the public conciousness with the reaction to the elextion of Trump.




https://youtu.be/ti2bVS40cz0
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  #38  
Old 24 March 2018, 12:14 AM
jimmy101_again jimmy101_again is offline
 
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Apparently, I've inadvertently taught my dog to give a Nazi salute. She has "shake" and "high five".
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  #39  
Old 24 March 2018, 04:04 AM
Jusenkyo no Pikachu Jusenkyo no Pikachu is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy101_again View Post
Apparently, I've inadvertently taught my dog to give a Nazi salute. She has "shake" and "high five".
I thought “high five” raised both legs, but that might just be on smaller dogs.
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  #40  
Old 24 March 2018, 05:36 AM
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Both paws would be "give me ten."
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