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  #1  
Old 28 December 2014, 03:31 AM
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Airplane AirAsia flight QZ8501 from Indonesia to Singapore missing

An AirAsia flight travelling from the Indonesian city of Surabaya to Singapore has lost contact with air traffic control, the company has said. Indonesian media say 162 people were on board. The aircraft, flight number QZ8501, lost contact with air traffic control at 07:24 (00:24 GMT), AirAsia tweeted. The company said that search and rescue operations were under way for the missing plane.
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  #2  
Old 28 December 2014, 03:37 AM
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Eeek, what's with all these missing planes?

Found a news source, though it doesn't contain many additional details (obviously.)

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-30614627
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  #3  
Old 28 December 2014, 03:57 AM
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Unfortunate news for those with loved ones on the plane. Holding out hope that survivors will be found.

Yeah, we had a long spell with few fatalities. We kind of got spoiled. Looks like the odds caught up.
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  #4  
Old 28 December 2014, 04:05 AM
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Oops, though I had posted that link.

I know it's a big busy area, but it still seems too close to where things went bad with the Malaysia Air flight.
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  #5  
Old 28 December 2014, 10:57 PM
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Looks like the article I linked has been updated with vastly more details, but here's a more recent article, not that it's a hopeful one

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-30620647

Quote:
Flight QZ8501 had left Surabaya in eastern Java at 05:35 local time on Sunday (22:35 GMT Saturday) and was due to arrive in Singapore at 08:30 (00:30 GMT).

Last contact was at 06:24 local time.

Dense storm clouds were reported in the area at the time the plane lost contact.

The pilot had asked permission to climb to 38,000ft (11,000m) to avoid the clouds.

Indonesian officials said the request could not be immediately approved due to traffic, but the plane disappeared from the radar screens before the pilots gave any further response.

Mr Fernandes flew to Surabaya and later said: "We are very devastated by what's happened, it's unbelievable.

"Our concern right now is for the relatives and for the next of kin - there is nothing more important to us, for our crew's family, and for the passengers' families."
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  #6  
Old 29 December 2014, 01:01 AM
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Eek! What is it with Malaysia flights this year?! I'm starting to wonder if there's some kind of gypsy curse at work here.
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  #7  
Old 29 December 2014, 03:00 AM
Singing in the Drizzle Singing in the Drizzle is offline
 
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I'm sure we will be hearing about some Malaysia Triangle thing shortly if it is not already out there. I afraid to look...

First hit followed by several more.

Malaysia Airlines Flight 370: Is There a Bermuda Triangle Connection?
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  #8  
Old 29 December 2014, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Singing in the Drizzle View Post
I'm sure we will be hearing about some Malaysia Triangle thing shortly if it is not already out there. I afraid to look...

Malaysia Airlines Flight 370: Is There a Bermuda Triangle Connection?
Having flown over the flight path where the Air Asia flight disappeared (twice in the last few weeks and a few times in the general area in the last 5 years) I am leaning towards the conjecture that severe weather may have been involved.

I have experienced some of the most severe weather in my flying experience (since 1968) in the Asian region and particularly in the monsoon season and/or build up in Australia/Asia/India.

I feel so sorry for the families of the passengers while they wait for news.

Last edited by Biggles; 29 December 2014 at 11:36 AM.
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  #9  
Old 29 December 2014, 09:16 PM
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On a secondary level, I've seen lots of reports of a woman on Fox News saying that international flights are dangerous because they use the metric system? Does anyone know if this is true, or simply anti-Fox New jabs?
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  #10  
Old 30 December 2014, 01:37 PM
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Icon06 Indonesia: Bodies found near site where AirAsia plane disappeared

Quote:
Six bloated bodies and debris seen floating in Indonesian waters Tuesday painfully ended the mystery of AirAsia Flight 8501, which crashed into the Java Sea with 162 people aboard and was lost to searchers for more than two days.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...plane-java-sea

I am saddened by this whole event, but I am in a sense relieved that the wreckage has been found, rather than having the dragged-out situation we had with the previous disappearance in the area. And at least these families know what happened to their kin.
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Old 30 December 2014, 01:59 PM
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Agreed. I just heard an interview the other day with a woman whose partner was on the Malaysian plane, and she talked about how hard it's been find to closure and accept that he's really gone.
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  #12  
Old 30 December 2014, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samwise Z View Post
On a secondary level, I've seen lots of reports of a woman on Fox News saying that international flights are dangerous because they use the metric system? Does anyone know if this is true, or simply anti-Fox New jabs?
IMO, that's an exaggeration of what she said. This article includes a video of the comments in question. What she said is:

Quote:
Even when we think about temperature, it’s Fahrenheit or Celsius. It’s kilometers or miles. You know, everything about their training could be similar, but different.
...
It’s not just a difference in the way that we measure things?
The bigger part of the discussion was if the culture of countries affects flight safety. They were wondering if a more rigid, formal culture would result in pilots not questioning senor pilots in deference to perceived rank.

Interestingly, the metric system did (sort of) contribute to a forced landing in the case of the Gimli Glider. Confusion over the recent switch from Imperial to metric fuel measurements lead to a 767 running out of fuel in midair. Luck was with them as the pilot was an experienced glider pilot and was able to glide them to a safe landing on an abandoned runway that had been converted to a racetrack. In a further bit of luck, the track was in use that day and the racers were able to use their fire extinguishers to put out a minor in the nose of the aircraft.

ETA: I assume the fact that this aircraft was found will be used as more fuel for the idea that something sinister happened to MH370?

FETA: They put out a minor fire in the nose, but the typo was too assuming to fix.
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  #13  
Old 30 December 2014, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A Turtle Named Mack View Post
... but I am in a sense relieved that the wreckage has been found, rather than having the dragged-out situation we had with the previous disappearance in the area.
Tell me about it. I spent 40-something days helping to wear a rut in the Indian Ocean looking for that thing. Edit: It was longer than 40-something days all up, but that was the length of our first stint. We ran out of fresh everything.

Last edited by Em; 30 December 2014 at 03:15 PM.
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  #14  
Old 30 December 2014, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
The bigger part of the discussion was if the culture of countries affects flight safety. They were wondering if a more rigid, formal culture would result in pilots not questioning senor pilots in deference to perceived rank.
Accidents and incidents resulting from this phenomenon has led to the introduction of Crew Resource Management (CRM). The phenomenon still exists, but it is disappearing fast. If you want to see people not challenging the pilot in charge, all you have to do is read about the Tenerife Air Disaster.

However, given that many countries will not allow carriers to fly into their airspace without adequate safety systems and procedures, CRM is very common throughout the world. I would not immediately jump on "not challenging the pilot" as a cause of this. It may be so, but I would not start there.

Quote:
Interestingly, the metric system did (sort of) contribute to a forced landing in the case of the Gimli Glider.
As a Manitoba boy, I remember this story clearly. I've been to Gimli several times and always marvel at the amount of precision required to bring that plane in for a safe landing.
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  #15  
Old 30 December 2014, 04:38 PM
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Just to clarify, I was summing up what the host was saying not proposing a cause. My knowledge of working with subordinates from other cultures is limited to about 20 programmers in the Republic of Philippians, so I'm hardly qualified to start wondering about Indonesian pilots.
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  #16  
Old 30 December 2014, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
Just to clarify, I was summing up what the host was saying not proposing a cause. My knowledge of working with subordinates from other cultures is limited to about 20 programmers in the Republic of Philippians, so I'm hardly qualified to start wondering about Indonesian pilots.
Apologies. I usually stick in a line "Using your post as a jumping off point" to clarify. I could tell from your comment on the article that you weren't debating on any point except to clarify what was said.
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  #17  
Old 31 December 2014, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
Republic of Philippians,.
Assume you meant Philippines?
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  #18  
Old 31 December 2014, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UEL View Post
If you want to see people not challenging the pilot in charge, all you have to do is read about the Tenerife Air Disaster.
Agree on Tenerife, but Asiana Airlines Flight 214 at San Franciso could also have had CRM issues.
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  #19  
Old 31 December 2014, 11:38 AM
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In the Asiana accident, CRM issues were listed by the NTSB as a contributing factor:


Quote:
Probable Cause

​The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) determined that the probable cause of this accident was the flight crew's mismanagement of the airplane's descent during the visual approach, the PF's unintended deactivation of automatic airspeed control, the flight crew's inadequate monitoring of airspeed, and the flight crew's delayed execution of a go-around after they became aware that the airplane was below acceptable glidepath and airspeed tolerances. Contributing to the accident were (1) the complexities of the autothrottle and autopilot flight director systems that were inadequately described in Boeing's documentation and Asiana's pilot training, which increased the likelihood of mode error; (2) the flight crew's nonstandard communication and coordination regarding the use of the autothrottle and autopilot flight director systems; (3) the PF's inadequate training on the planning and execution of visual approaches; (4) the PM/instructor pilot's inadequate supervision of the PF; and (5) flight crew fatigue, which likely degraded their performance.
In the above, "PF" is "Pilot Flying" and "PM" is "Pilot Monitoring". The full report is here:
http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/A...ts/AAR1401.pdf

It's very long, but the PDF is searchable. The parts relevant to CRM are found under the Analysis section; Crew Performance.

Each of the board members filed statements where they can concur or not with all or part the report's findings. They are found in their entirety near the end of the report before the appendices, and are worth reading.

~Psihala

Last edited by Psihala; 31 December 2014 at 11:54 AM.
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  #20  
Old 31 December 2014, 11:55 AM
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But it doesn't demonstrate an over-deference to the senior pilot, quite the contrary: the monitor/instructor was actually not involved enough. A failure of CRM in the other direction.
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